George Mason, pastor of Wilshire Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, tells us that first century women were uneducated in Scripture because women could not be taught scripture. He says that in 1 Timothy 2:11 women were told to learn in silence. If they didn’t understand what was being taught, then when they got home they could ask their husbands all the questions they had. Oftentimes they didn’t understand what was being discussed. Paul was telling them to not interrupt the speaker with questions, but to wait until they got home. Similar to my brother-in-law telling my sister-in-law “don’t talk football if you don’t understand it.”
Searching through the SBC seminaries, I found this little gem. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary is allowing women to earn a Master of Divinity with the notation “with women’s studies.”
Look what they are doing. They are denying women the privilege of learning scripture, just like those women Paul was talking about. This seminary wants to keep them ignorant. Oh, let’s qualify that a little bit. They want women to learn enough to teach other women. They got that from the scriptures, too. What they didn’t take from the scriptures was the fact that Mary was learning from the Teacher’s feet, a place reserved for the men.
If you are thinking about a seminary for your sons or your daughters, be aware of what that seminary is teaching. This is what the SBTS allow the girls to do:
• Graduate Studies for Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary also offers graduate programs with a concentration in women’s studies. Within the Master of Divinity or Master of Arts programs, a woman may concentrate in women’s studies in order to prepare for Christian leadership positions other than the pastorate and thereby receive the Master of Divinity or Master of Arts degrees with the notation “with women’s studies.” The concentration provided by this track will prepare women for a wide variety of family, care-giving and mission ministries:
• in church staff and denominational positions in which they develop, deliver and/or supervise ministries to women;
• in missionary work;
• in evangelistic work;
• in women’s conference ministries;
• in teaching the Bible and related disciplines to women;
• in advocacy work;
• in teaching ministries addressing the practical, moral and spiritual needs of women.
If that is not enough to make you want to throw up, let me tell you more. Women can attend a self-defense class where they will discuss crime statistics, practice basic self-defense techniques (guess they haven’t been watching the strong women athletes at the Olympics this week), learn how to avoid dangerous situations, and be aware of their surroundings.
The women of Southeastern are invited to attend a self-defense class on Saturday, March 17th from 10am to noon. During the class we will discuss crime statistics, practice some basic self-defense techniques and learn how to avoid dangerous situations, vulnerable attack points and how to be aware of your surroundings (i.e. robbery, carjacking, rape prevention). Instructor, Nathan Brown is a 2nd year seminary student and a 5th degree black belt in traditional karate.
They are going to need that, and much more. Look at where the SBC is willing to send women. In the DS Affirmation #9 we learn where the women can go with their MDiv in women studies. They will send women into the dangerous parts of the world, while they keep their white male preachers behind the pulpits at home.
Danvers Statement Affirmation # 9.) With half the world’s population outside the reach of indigenous evangelism; with countless other lost people in those that societies have heard the gospel; with the stresses and miseries of sickness, malnutrition, homelessness, illiteracy, ignorance, aging, addiction, crime, incarceration, neuroses, and loneliness, no man or woman who feels a passion from God to make His grace known in word and deed need ever live without a fulfilling ministry for the glory of Christ and the good of this fallen world (1 Corinthians 12:7-21).
Oh, yeah. They might also need this basic self-defense class in their own home. That is, if they are not submitting enough. After all, Dr. Bruce Ware says that men have two reactions to the resistance to their authority – wife abuse, or “yes, dear, whatever you say, dear.”
Why do women put up with this? If you are tired of this old-fashioned, mean-spirited teaching, speak up!
bWe Baptist Women for Equality's Blog 
They sure know how to put a twist on everything and make it work out to their advantage. If a woman isn’t fit to teach a man how can she be fit to teach women and children if she is so easily deceived? That would be the blind leading the blind. Or is it just a way to give her the jobs the men don’t want to do? Teach a woman to be meek and submissive then send her into a dangerous situation, that makes a lot of sense too.
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It is a way to demean, devalue, and bully women. There is no love for women, no love for God, no love for the scriptures in these teachings. There is love for one thing – power. Power. Power over women, power over other men by leading other them to believe this.
> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:52:48 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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This is a great post: excellent, practical points.
What they really need to do to address the issue here, to make women more safe, is to teach men to respect women. Men need to be taught that women are people. Men can stop the rape of women.
Good points you make here about the scriptures that masculinists ignore. There are SO many of them. Someone once mentioned to me that John Piper has written a book on women of the Bible. I believe he misses the main point of what the Bible has to say about women, so I have no interest in reading it…
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Yes, the college didn’t have to tell the women that they would be using self-defense against MEN. Male headship men, in fact. All men are male headship men, because the bible doesn’t say that some men have male headship while others don’t.
> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:27:07 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary is really nice to women by allowing them to do the following: receive a Masters of Arts Degree with a Homemaking Concentration.–anyone that knows me knows that I am being very sarcastic in the above sentence.
As always what I am about to say is debateable but there just is no place for women to serve in the SBC but in roles that men determine. The guys in control are just going to make it worse for women and also for any man particularly a SB minister who is willing to publicly make a stand for women to be allowed to preach or be a deacon or serve in leadership positions.
Just as many years ago people misused the bible to support slavery we now have a group of men misusing the bible to severly minizmize the roles of women.
I have spent almost 40 years of my life as a SB but have never been more discouraged than what I see taking place in this one great denomination.
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I understand exactly what you are saying. These people are bullies. The pastors are bullied by the leadership. They in turn, by their inaction, bully women.
> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:43:24 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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There are certainly women who misuse the Bible to their own detriment, and the detriment of others, as well. Folks are, in my opinion, all too willing to believe what they are taught without stepping out and investigating it for themselves.
But I need to remember that I was *raised* being taught that I should think for myself and question things, and I should not take that for granted. At some point in one’s life, though, I would hope it would occur to more people that it would be a good thing to do.
It’s the same way for women in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). I know that’s my standard line, but I’m going to keep putting it out there for google or whomever else to pick up on it.
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Is the PCA complementarian?
> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:25:12 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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Michelle:
As I have said before women are going to have to make a bold stand about these “women issues” as the folks in charge are intractable and unmovable.
The sad part is the way people are black balled simply because they do not follow the party line.
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This is indeed the case! Though we cannot stand alone. Thank you for standing with us. 🙂
Some of those in the classes granted authority by a society (or subculture, in this case) are always needed in the fight against injustice. Men fighting alongside women, white people fighting alongside people of color, etc.
Thank you for putting “women’s issues” in quotation marks. I hate that term…
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Yes, the PCA is most assuredly hierarchical complementarian. There’s a wide range of it in practice, with the most “enlightened” churches “permitting” women to serve as deacons. In the PCA, the deacons deal with the day-to-day business of the church, for example, finance committee, the building committee, etc.–the “hands-on” stuff. The elders deal with the spiritual matters of the church. They’re referred to as ruling elders if they don’t teach, and the preacher(s) are teaching elders.
The church we used to attend actually “permitted” women to serve in any way that a non-ordained male could serve. So, they didn’t ordain their deacons in order that women might also serve as deacons. Women could also read scripture, sing, play instruments, and serve communion.
I did have to check someone on that last one, though. After the pastor talked about communion and blessed everything, folks lined up to take communion. Typically the person walking in front to serve communion (at the communion rails at the front of the church) carried the host, with the person carrying wine and grape juice following. The person in front, typically an elder or deacon or whatever other man could be found, would quietly say some sort of blessing to communicants as they took the host. When my husband and I will called up on the fly to serve communion and the pastor was suggesting to my husband something to say, I pointed out, “He’s no more ordained than I am!”
It is highly likely that to this day, that was the only time a woman has served the host and said a blessing to each communicant. I still remember the odd look on the face of one man.
In some churches, women are more limited. Some people left our church when it recognized that women could serve as deacons. If you’ve ever heard of the Bayly blog, you don’t want to go there. But I believe they represent the opposite end of the spectrum from our former church.
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Oh, the person following the man serving communion was usually his wife, though it did not always work that way. Not great for the single people in the congregation, IMO.
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John Piper is very popular in PCA circles (even in our relatively moderate church, where the culture was worse than what we heard from the pulpit, in terms of gender expectations) and I first heard of CBMW in a PCA church, as well. So there is a lot of overlap between the SBC (or GCB, apparently) and the PCA in the area of theology of gender (which I believe may well be entirely read into scripture from human cultures: I highly doubt that a valid theology of gender exists).
Do you have a take on the alternate name being made available for SBC churches? “Great Commission Baptist” churches? Do you believe it’s to make it easier to plant churches in the north and in the west and elsewhere? Or do you think it’s because by this time, there are negative associations with “Southern Baptist Convention” because of its stances and behavior, and the SBC is trying to get out of those, rather than to get away from a geographically centered name?
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John Piper is very important because he is one of the founders of the CMBW, and their past president was a Presbyterian. Many Baptists and Presbyterians are sleeping together with the Calvinism belief – as I said before I am not Calvinist. But they have found fellowship together, and Piper is Calvinist. I don’t have a take on what will happen in changing their name. Convention (as in Southern Baptist Convention) is an old fashioned term and is not in use anymore with this definition except in Baptist circles. Whenever I told people I worked for Baptist General Convention of Texas they thought I worked for some convention planning service. Most Baptist state offices (like what I worked for) have the word Convention in their name. Baptist General Convention of Texas is now called Texas Baptists. If SBC changes, then I forsee all these states doing the same. It means a group of like things (Baptist churches). Whether or not it will make a difference in how people perceive them is something else entirely. I forsee darkening days ahead for them, no matter what they call themselves. They have become narrow minded, with hatred toward gays and women, which they link together. They are narrow minded in regards to what God can do because they have put the parameters around God. Did you ever see dried locust shells clinging to trees? Google it. This is how the SBC appears to me. Shells that look like a real live flying insect, but hollow inside. > Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:53:23 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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Yes. I was surprised to read all the familiar names and publications on a non-PCA blog when I first began reading you.
I have no horse in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism race. I think it’s pointless in that we should all be trying to do what God has made us to do, and there’s no way we can really, truly know the way that God has worked things out. Not while we’re here on Earth, anyway.
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Shirley:
I think another way to think of the SBC is as follows–when I was a very small boy I saw with mine own eyes a chicken that had its neck wrung–it flapped around for several minutes without its head even though it was every bit dead. The Powers to be in the SBC are that way they do not realize they are leading a dying denomination.
I can also say in some SB churches there is a required membership class before you are “allowed” to join–IMO this is used to discourage folks who can not live with their ways at this church or once it is discovered by the pastor or others they will not fit in they are discouraged from joining. This all sound very STEPFORD to me.
Most SB chuches have become a very unwelcome place for some people as they are made to feel in every way not wanted.
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Shirley you were right before when you said the SBC had influence over many denominations. I attend a non-denominational mega church that I believe, at least in the past, was influenced by the SBC. It has gone through some changes in the past few years since the older senior pastor retired. The younger pastors seem to be moving away from making everything into a culture war like the old pastor did. But at the present they are “soft” comp. “Culture War” mentality plays a key role in keeping women locked in roles. The old pastor at one time had me believing that all feminists were these male-bashing people who are determined to bully and emasculate all men. Now I know better. He, at one time, had me believing that all homosexuals were bullies who will tolerate no view but their own and are determined to force all churches into performing same-sex marriages. But now that I have gay family and friends, I have found that to be untrue as well. Many of them are willing to discuss it peacefully and understand other people’s wishes to follow their own understanding of the bible. I’m afraid I can’t say the same for individuals at my church. The chicken restaurant episode from two weeks ago was a reminder to me of that. When I made it known that I would not be joining in this latest culture war, because I didn’t want to have my gay loved ones think I am fighting them, people who were once warm towards me are now cold. They are backstabbing former church members who left to side with the LGBT community. It has helped me to see where people stand. The younger pastors have remained silent on the matter. The old pastor, on his blog, rebuked churches for being silent, and implied that if we’re not joining in the culture war, then we really don’t care about the souls of those who live in sin.
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The SBC influence is hard to ignore because so many attend their seminaries. LatelyI have visited the websites of their 6 seminaries and frankly, it frightens me. One course that was being taught (in a different seminary that this blog is about) was titled “teaching husbands to lead and wives how to follow.” They have numerouse off site campuses all across the nation. They are heavily Calvinist – which I am not. They are anti almost everything that reeks of understanding and loving your neighbor. The gay thing is a whole subject by itself. I believe that women’s equality has been the plug in the bottle and Baptists are afraid if the plug is removed, they will have to love everybody, including gays. I believe that is what has happened with churches that have accepted women as pastors. They began to see people instead of titles, and the began to accept people who accept God. Baptists are afraid of that. Is that Christian? I wonder.
> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 22:19:11 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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This “Great Commission Baptist” appellation is another lesson in what not to name yourselves. Most non-believers will either think about percentages of sales receipts, or crime. *grin*
You shouldn’t have to become a member of something to understand what their name means.
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Good article and expose. I believe you are right in saying that the women’s equality issue frightens men into thinking that once they’ve lost the fight to subjugate women that opens up the doors for lesbians to take over, or some such thing. Either that, or they think it’s a good scare tactic. One time when I challenged an elder in a Bible study (which I left soon after this exchange) about his interpretation of scriptures to indicate that women cannot interpret scriptures for themselves (men must do this for them), another man in the group commented that women who do not accept their “place” in the church or in the home just want to abort their babies and become lesbians. I was puzzled at the quantum leap of thought it took to go from the content of my question to his completely off topic and ridiculous statement. Now, having done a little research into the patriarchy/complementarianism movement, I fully understand how this could happen. I no longer attend any formal church. I haven’t attended “women’s Bible studies” for many years. And I’ve never had fellowship as rich and enriching as I have had since I left the buildings behind. It may only be two or three or four of us meeting together, but Jesus is faithful. You see, in our area, the Emergent Church/Postmodern Church, New Apostolic Reformation, and other so-called 21st century type churches have pretty much taken over. It’s either that, or Roman Catholic churches or patriarchy-type Baptists. I don’t do any of those. Loving my freedom and growth in Christ Jesus.
Phyllis
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Pnissila, thanks for commenting here. I found your blog and shared it on our CBE Houston facebook page.
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Thank you, Mabel. “Sisters in Christ” can at last unite…Online :).
Phyllis
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I met many sisters/brothers in Christ via internet, e.g. Shirley Taylor. I read her online before she started this blog. We finally met a year ago. I probably got to meet face to face with about half a dozen egals that I first met online. I even hope to meet Margaret Mowzsko one day if and when I go down under to visit my sister in Sydney. Phyllis, Christ Rogers of Austin, TX, whom I looked up when I last went to Austin, likes your blog. If you are on Facebook, look us up.
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Yes! My dear friend, Mabel. I have been so busy with the editing of my book that that is all I can think of. It has gotten bigger, and now I am so tired of it that I am not sure it is any good at all!
> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:16:31 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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