Of course Pastor Dave assured me that I am not banned, I just can’t come to their website and insult them anymore. I have to stick to exegesis. I keep forgetting to ask my husband what that word means – since they think he is in charge of my spiritual development. Lately Don seems to be falling down on his job and not explaining these things to me.
Seems that Pastor Dave was especially offended by a comment that I made and he would not post it, and then he had to write me:
Shirley
Join the discussion in a scriptural and godly way or walk away. I’m tired of you coming in and lobbing insults time after time. If you have no better arguments than insults, then there might be other sites at which you will be happier blogging.
I tried to find the insult in the words that I had written him. See if you can find it.
There were 182 comments arguing over whether or not women could be preachers. Reminds me of when my Baptist Sunday school teachers guide said that “Jews loved nothing more than to go to the marketplace and argue over whether or not women had souls.” Then I asked him how many of his readers would like 182 comments on their scriptural qualifications.
I keep trying to get through to Pastor Dave that 182 comments on whether or not women are scripturally qualified to serve our Lord, is an insult to women. (comments are now closed)
It appears that unless I agree with them, my comments are insults. What thin skin they have. I guess this is because men don’t a history of having to defend themselves, like women have had to do since time began. Men haven’t been hunted down and called witches and burned at the stake. They haven’t had to go to church and sit in a pew while they are told that they are incomplete Christians.
Would you believe that Pastor Dave banned my words from his blog, but he wrote me three emails chastising me. I guess he thinks he can do that because he is a pastor and I am just a woman in need of correcting. Maybe he forgot that it is my husband who is supposed to correct me.
He even told me that if he came to my blog that you, dear readers, would be mean to him, even though his readers were not mean to me. I think 182 comments about women is pure meanness, directed at all women.
Of course I did manage to use my favorite phrases. Some are just too good not to use. I asked him to remember that the farthest thing from Saul’s mind as he walked down the road to Damascus was that he might be wrong.
And then I asked him “what if the shoe was on the other foot?” He self-righteously replied that he hoped he would be gracious about it and accept what God had decided. He might not have liked it when I told him that he wouldn’t be gracious about it. He would be looking for loop holes in that argument, and I told him that women have found a bunch of loop holes in their argument.
Yesterday morning I reminded him that Jesus told the Pharisees that their law had become more important than the people. They couldn’t heal on the Sabbath, and it was people that would be hurt by this law. So I asked him: “Are you a Pharisee or are you a Jesus follower?”
We appeal to people on whatever level we can. I am not a pastor, I don’t know Greek, but I do know human nature. I do know that Jesus was for the people. People just like me. I do know that one of the great things that Jesus had against the religious Jews of his day, was that they had forgotten the people. I think he would look these Pastors in the eye and tell them the same thing. “You have forgotten the people.”
Will you join me in speaking up for “the people?”
I recommend Suzanne’s Bookshelf for more on what we have been discussing, including my blog “They’ve stolen Jesus! Tell us where he is and we find him.”
bWe Baptist Women for Equality's Blog 
My thoughts on this pastor choosing to ban you, once I get past the outrage, are this .. I think you reasoned well, and coherently, from the Scriptures and posed some excellent questions. Unfortunately, he has resorted to what Robert Jay Lifton calls dispensing with existence. In his mind, he considers women to be barely human, has already pigeon-holed you and your comments as undeserving to be taken seriously. This is what happens when people resort to black-and-white, either or thinking, i.e. either you agree with me on all points or you are a Nazi, a socialist, whatever, I don’t have, therefore, the obligation to listen to what you have to say or take you seriously as a human being with ideas that might have merit. For Pastor Dave, it is relatively easy to do this because he has a theology — distorted and legalistic as it is, to dispel any questions. He also, sadly has the support and affirmation of others on the blog with the 82 comments, and this constant affirming and reaffirming the rightness of his position against women teaching and serving in the church feeds on itself. It’s like the testimony sessions we engaged in when I wasin the cult .. everybody said the group and the teaching and the leader were so wonderful .. and there were no other voices out there to tell you otherwise. Keep fighting, .. and being a voice of reason, in hope that someone who may have read your words will at some point begin looking for other points of view.
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Welcome! I want to take this time to welcome all my new subscribers.
Thanks for this comment. Glad to have you join us. Let us raise our voices! You are right about the feeding upon each other with their beloved beliefs. There were dissenters among the group of 182 comments. The reader you commented below was one of those who dissented. We are thankful that those brave people and sorry they get lumped in with the bad ones when mentioned as 182 comments. But the very fact that they have to speak up for women is included in the idea of the 182 being an insult.
As I told Pastor Dave, nobody has to speak up about the men pastors as to whether or not they are scripturally qualified to do anything!
Again, welcome!
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I’m glad that some of the 182 were listening. Actually, there may have been more among the silent majority, and possibly some who were offended or disagreed strongly at first but for whom you may have planted a seed. I kept coming back to your comments about rigid rules yesterday and thinking about how the Pharissees were so caught up in keeping every little minute detail that they left out the needs of people altogether. Christ warned them in Matt. 23 in his stinging eight woes about gagging on a gnat while swallowing a cammel, and neglecting the weighter matters of the law, mercy, justice and sacrifice. Thanks so much for the welcome .. I find this blog easy to post to because of email alerts that let me know a new post is there I might want to reply to. I look forward to hanging out here more and to the mutual support of other sisters in Christ with similar questions and experiences to my own.
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Thank you, Andrea. We are all in this together. One of the things that I try to do is to say things differently. We have all heard the arguments, we know the scriptures, and we go round and round in circles quoting them to each other. We have to get out of the ruts and see things differently. My husband says we have to get out of “Bible World” and see what these things mean in the real world. These bloggers are so caught up in the legal words that they forget that it is people who the Bible is written for. They forget that when they talk about women this way, that is their wife, their daughter, and their sister that they are talking about. Thank you for the encouraging words. I post a new blog on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Suggestions for subjects are welcome.
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You’re doing an excellent job. Keep up the good work. I added you to our links of interest on the ECA forums.
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Shirley:
I think that I am a stone’s throw away from being banned by Pastor Dave. He just does not like anyone pointing out other sides. But he has the Conservative Resurgence mindset and you are either with him or not.
One of the things you mentioned was the silent majority–men and women are afraid to speak their minds for fear of “retribution.” These folks do not take prisoners.
I really believe someday folks in the SBC are going to mourn the treatment of women for these many years.
Keep speaking up!!
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Emily Dickinson said “there is a pair of us, don’t tell. They’d banish us, you know.” Pastor Dave can’t seem to understant that it is insulting to discuss women like we are some creature. We are God’s own creation and part of the body of Christ along with him. I’ve been reading what you have said, and I am so glad that someone talks back to this pastor. Thanks for being a new subscriber! I appreciate it.
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Shirely:
As I said my days at Voices are probably numbered. Pastor Dave gets really angry if you question him, But I have made up my mind that I will ask the questions I believe others would ask until he bans me.
One day they will realize they are wrong.
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Good for you! There are other websites that we can find, and try to let the light in.
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With all due respect I was a little disappointed in how you handled your arguments on that post. You consistently used emotion as your argument rather than what everyone was asking for, Scripture. When I was reading through the comments I was honestly hoping to hear you give an argument out of Scripture. I think in this post you incredibly unfairly pegged the majority of people that commented on that post. Granted there were a minority that were complete jerks that got my blood boiling, but Dave was not one of them.
Maybe you feel that no one will take your arguments from Scripture seriously, but that is no excuse. I personally would openly welcome to hear your view based out of Scripture. Emotional arguments just don’t prove a point for me. Maybe that is a flaw in my character, but for the time being that is the way i am.
I apologize if this post comes off as disrespectful. If you would prefer I don’t come back to your blog then I will respect those wishes. I just found your one sides take on this situation to be somewhat offensive, and genuinely wanted to hear your argument over this issue rather than personally attacking people on the other side (Even if some of them did deserve it).
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Welcome! I am glad that you came to my website and are asking me about the specific scriptures that allow women – to do what? Preach, serve as a deacon, have authority over a man (first we have to assume that anybody can have authority over another person saved by Christ), take up the offering, take up the attendance pads, serve communion, pray out loud where a man might hear? Just exactly which scripture do you want to argue about?
One church allows women to sing in the choir facing the congregation. Another will allow women to sing only facing the pulput and not looking at the congregation. You want that scripture? It’s not in the Bible, but when you decide that women CAN’T, then you make the rules. And each church makes their own rules. Your church may be “reasonable” but these other Christian churches don’t see it your way.
2 Corinthians 5:15: “and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.” What was Christ’s death and resurrection for if it were not for women as well as men. And if it were for women, then women have the same obligation and privileges that men have. If you don’t believe that, Fletcher, you may as well collect all the Bibles from your women as they walk through your door into your church, because the Bible was not written for them.
Thank you for commenting. Sorry I was late in approving this, but I was at a meeting where we are plotting and planning to speak out for women’s equality. ( Romans 16:1 “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints….”)
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No problem in the delay. I don’t expect you to be able to approve things immediately :). Thank you for your response. I suppose I was most curious on your scripture that deals specifically with women being pastors and how you would handle some of the more “popular” passages that are used to say women can’t be pastor. Also I am not asking for Scriptures to “argue” over. I think you would agree that arguing would be pointless. Rather I want to learn from different views in order to better understand my feelings on topic. Perhaps I will agree with you on some areas.
I also recognize that some churches are pretty extreme in their views and are very harsh towards women. (The area I grew up in had some churches that were infamous for this). I will openly admit that I hold to the view that women cannot be pastors. I don;t view this due to the capabilities, but rather form what I see in Scripture. That being said, my wife is invaluable in our ministry, and she brings things to the table that wouldn’t be there otherwise.
I hope that while our views are different we can still respect each other and the opinions we hold to?
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Yes, we can respect each others views. I want you to examine your heart, though, and reread what you just wrote about your wife. You are not showing her respect because you have put her into a second-class tier. You said she is invaluable, she brings things to the table. Those things are good, but you have withheld one area of service that she can’t do. You have drawn the line over which she can never cross. That line says that she can’t preach. However, we find that Jesus told the woman at the well before he told anybody else, that he was the Messiah. What do you think he thought would happen when he told her that? She did exactly what he knew would happen. She went and preached. Jesus had opportunity to reveal that he was risen from the tomb to the men who were there (guards and possibly Peter), but he chose to reveal himself to Mary and he told her to go and tell. If Jesus can tell a woman to go and tell, why can’t we? It’s his gospel, isn’t it? You know those scriptures as well as I do, Fletch. It is harmful to keep women to your level of service. Its not scriptural. In fact, it gives men a place in the Trinity. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Men. I appreciate your comments. If you know anything about my ministry, you will know that I try to get people to think outside the box (or more exactly, outside the rut of a few scriptures) and to see the broad picture of Jesus and his gospel for all Christians. Fletch, women want to be able to walk into their church and not feel that their church holds it against them that they are women. Shirley
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Shirley,
Thanks for the reply. You never really answered my questions though. I wanted to know what Scriptures you use to say women can be pastors and how you handle the passages that would seem to say differently. Instead you took on part of my comment and focused on that. To be honest, I’m a little annoyed that you assume what is in my heart and as well as my wifes.
I admit to often the church presents this issue in such a way that women feels that they are held to a lesser value simply because they are women. It is honestly a shame to me when that happens. however, I didn’t ask for arguments from personal experience or emotional opinions, but rather Scripture.
The story of the woman at the well has nothing to do with women being pastors. Of course we should all share the gospel. Being a pastor is not just sharing the gospel though. I’m having a little trouble seeing how that passage answers the questions I had.
Sorry if this comes across as harsh, it just feels like you have been dodging my questions since I started asking them. I realize you don’t intend to, but that is how it is coming across.
I appreciate your desire for me to examine my heart in where you think I am being wrong. Thank you for expressing that concern.
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Fletch, I am answering your question, just not in the way you want me to engage. Being a pastor is no better than going and preaching. What is it about a building made of brick and wood that gives you greater insight to God’s heart and would make you a more valuable person to God? I admire pastors, and have worked for pastors for over 20 years. But there is not one thing a male pastor can do for his flock spiritually that a woman pastor can’t do. You want to hold me to a scripture where Paul tells women that he does not permit women to have authority over men. You want to hold me to a scripture that tells overseers that they must be the husband of one wife when you know fully well that Paul is speaking of having multiple wives at one time and is telling them not to overburden a man who already has much on his plate with many wives and children. (why else would Paul be concerned about how many wives a man had?) You want to keep women to a First century attitude while you proceed into the 21st century. Do you know that this attitude about women is still held in the Islamic faith? Fletch, I am not a First Century Jewish woman, nor am I a Muslim. I am a 21st century Christian. The scriptures were written for me to help me live today, not to live in the past. God is a God of the present and will take us into the future but you want to leave women behind. Read Matthew 23 where Jesus chastises the Jews for their rigid interpretation of the Law. Don’t you think maybe you are doing the same thing? Like I said, I appreciate this opportunity. I suspect that you have had others argue these scriptures point by point, English and Greek word for English and Greek word, but I don’t do that. I don’t know Greek, but from what I see of Jesus Christ, he gave women dignity and the gospel to preach and to tell. There weren’t any church buildings, but if there had been, women would have been welcomed in them. The Pharisees wanted to argue with Jesus point by point of the Law and he pointed out to them that people were more important than the law. Shirley
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Look back at all of my comments. Did I ever say I wanted to hold you to any of those things? Nope. What I wanted was to hear your view through Scripture. It’s frustrating because now you are just putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. Instead you are taking the usual arguments you hear from people who don’t hold to the same view as you and expecting I am just like them. I’m not asking for you to break everything down in Greek. I am asking for a simple clear foundation of your view based off of Scripture. You don’t need to know Greek in order to do that Shirley. Your saying I am asking for things that I am simply not asking for. Don’t read in between the lines of my posts. Read them for what is there.
Maybe you think I am trying to trap you? Honestly I am not. I am not here to argue. I simply want a clear explanation for why you reached the conclusion you have on this topic. I’m not saying being a pastor is better than preaching, but I do believe there is a difference. You have been assuming a lot of things that I never actually said. You make it difficult to have a discussion over this topic. I’m sorry for those that have been a pain in the neck to you over this, I genuinely am. But if you truly want to change peoples minds, then you need to deal with each new person you discuss on this topic with a clean slate. All you have done now is insulted me, my relationship with my wife, and put words and views in my mouth that I never said.
Maybe it was a mistake for me to come here and talk over this topic with an opposing view. I find it difficult to discuss this when you are critiquing my view that I haven’t even fully subscribed to or explained yet. You are attacking preconceived notions of me rather than answering questions from an individual that is genuinely curious.
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No, you didn’t make a mistake coming here to discuss this. I am not insulting you or your wife. What I am trying to point out is that it is people – the Karas, the Julies, the Megans – who are affected by this interpretation that women cannot pastor a church. It is easy to say “the Bible says” and hide behind the scripture where Paul says that he, personally, did not allow a woman to have authority over a man. It is a different thing to look at women who are called by God and who have gone to seminary and then tell them that they must be mistaken because ‘women can’t pastor’ a church and God would not call a woman to pastor. When one woman is denied simply because she was born a woman, then all women are denied. Your wife, your daughter, your sister, and me. It is people, and that is what Jesus is about. I have been answering your questions, and now I want to ask you one. For sake of this question, let’s assume that God does not call women to pastor a church. In your study of the scriptures, why would God not call a woman to preach? Again, I appreciate this discussion. Shirley
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You didn’t answer my questions Shirley. You may think in your mind you have, but you didn’t You have blown over about 80% of what I say in each of my comments. You didn’t even apologize for putting words in my mouth. If you want to respond to this and get the last word in then go ahead. Keep in mind I won’t be reading it though. My time here is done. Lear to respect others and actually respond to what they say rather then push your agenda.
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Fletch, you wanted to play ping-pong with your favorite scriptures and the Bible is much more than that.
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The story of the woman at the well has nothing to do with women being pastors. Of course we should all share the gospel. Being a pastor is not just sharing the gospel though. -Fletch
Fletch,
I find interesting that you apparently didn’t read Shirley’s comment very thoroughly at all since she did not mention “the woman at the well”.
She was speaking of John 20 where the Resurrected Jesus is role modeling the calling of women into ministry. Mary was called as “apostle to the Apostles”! The first apostolic commission post-Resurrection was to ….. a WOMAN! This is entirely relevant to the status and calling of women Post-Resurrection.
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Oops sorry Fletch, I’m the guilty one. Shirley DID mention the woman at the well. I repent in sackcloth and ashes…
So, to backtrack, I see “the woman at the well” in John 4 to whom Jesus revealed himself as Messiah, and raise John 20 and all the other Gospels which record women as the FIRST to preach the Good News.
Set your wife free to be all that GOD calls! 🙂
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You didn’t answer my questions Shirley. You may think in your mind you have, but you didn’t You have blown over about 80% of what I say in each of my comments. -Fletch
Pot, kettle, black.
Personally, I understand your sentiment, Fletch. I feel very disrespected when people fire back comments at me when its clear to me that they didn’t read what I said in the first place. Unfortunately, for those of us of the female gender who have engaged in deep biblical study, this is very typical and its universal- comes from egals too, though they don’t throw in words like “rebellious” and “Jezebel” when they ignore what a woman has to say.
So, put yourself in your wife’s shoes. Merely because she is a woman, her words are automatically discounted, JUST LIKE THE 12 APOSTLES DID TO MARY!
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Here are the male apostles disbelieving and discounting the testimony of Mary and the other female witnesses:
Sad that 2000 years have passed and professed believing men still do not trust women to proclaim the Good News. 😦
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I am asking for a simple clear foundation of your view based off of Scripture. -Fletch
Well, Shirley already alluded to John 20, the “NEW PARADIGM” which Jesus instituted by role model Post-Resurrection.
I have a very simple logical proof that Paul did not mean to prohibit women from leadership positions in the church:
I’ve heard the argument that because 1 Timothy 3:2, 1 Tim 3:12, and Titus 1:6 use the expression translated as “husband of one wife” therefore, deacons, elders, bishops are unqualified unless they are MALE. People assume the expression “husband of one wife” means women are excluded.
God’s Word does not contradict itself. Paul- under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit- would not contradict himself:
“Let deacons be the husbands of one wife” 1 Tim 3:12
Therefore “husband of one wife” cannot mean the exclusion of women from the role in question. If it did, Paul would be contradicting himself by appointing and commending Deacon Phoebe. Despite the obscuring of her deacon identity by English translations, she is commended by Paul in Romans 16:1 using the exact same “diakonon”[deacon] word he used in Rom 15:8 for Christ, Romans 15:25 for himself, and 1 Thes 3:2 for Timothy.
Personally, if you can work your way through to viewing your wife’s equal calling, I think you have a great opportunity to be a ministry team like Priscilla and Aquilla who are credited with instructing future church leader Apollos (and I don’t think for a minute that Priscilla just served the tea and cookies while Aquilla did the preaching and exegesis!). I wish there were more good equal husband-wife ministry teams.
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Fletch:
In reading your comments I am not convinced of your sincerity, so if you leave this site the rest of us will not have lost much in “conversation” from you.
You come across as the one looking to argue.
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We all noticed that he didn’t answer my question: Why would God not call women to preach?
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Fletch:
Please come back and participate. We all can learn from each other if we have an open mind.
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I gather Fletch is in ministry and perhaps he really does want proof so that he can relax and allow his wife to be a full and equal partner in ministry? I pray that churches of tomorrow will follow a Priscilla and Aquilla model of ministry. If only Fletch could get hold of this…
Anyway, Shirley, I apologize for being a black pot. 😉
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Fletch, I do hope that you are still reading here because I would like to dialogue with you on this question.
To the question of what Scriptures say that women can be pastors, I will say that every Scripture that says that men can be pastors is also addressing women. There is no differentiation. In Paul’s discussions about the callings, motivational grace gifts, and the spiritual gifts there is no division between gifts for males or gifts for females. Paul has made clear that all believers are now sons of God, baptized into Christ to put on Christ and receive the full inheritance. Jesus made it clear that we are all through the help of the Holy Spirit to do the works that He did and more. Paul also said that all believers are to develop into a full human, to the stature of the fullness and maturity of Christ. Christ is the example for all believers to attain to, to reach for.
Those Scriptures that some use to deny women the availability to mature into the gifts of the Spirit and full Christlikeness are taken out of context and misapplied. We can talk about each one, one at a time if you like.
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“You consistently used emotion as your argument rather than what everyone was asking for, Scripture. When I was reading through the comments I was honestly hoping to hear you give an argument out of Scripture.”
Fletch, I laughed out loud when I read this. I have been reading over at that blog for years. The “pastors” over there annilate each other with”scripture” every day. In fact, it is calvin vs free will most of the time and the calvinists say pompously ‘THEY believe the bible”. That is their argument! And this is quoting the same scriptures as the free will folks! Then there is the case of “my expert is better than your expert”. That is always good for a few rounds.
And let me tell you, fletch, those guys are all emotion whether they admit it or not. But mainly they are insulated pastors with too much time on their hands. They need real jobs to get a reality check. SBCvoices is where I send people to get a feel for what is standing behind SBC pulpits these days.
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It is easy to say “the Bible says” and hide behind the scripture where Paul says that he, personally, did not allow a woman to have authority over a man.”
Paul never wrote that. He wrote she (singular) should not “autheteo” a man. BIG DIFFERENCE. Even Calvin got it because he translates it as “domineer”. Authenteo is a really bad thing and we see here it is in the context of teaching wrong things. (The reference to Eve gives us a clue what it is in Ephesus)
Please do not expect Fletch to agree. He has his special status and his wife has hers. He thinks he will answer for her at the bema seat and she cannot grow spiritually beyond him or she might make him think he is not the leader. So, he becomes her default Holy Spirit. Bad trade.
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What about 1 Peter 2:9 where followers of Christ are called ‘ a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God…’ ?
I see no gender distinctions in this passage. How can ‘royal priesthood’ automatically exclude females?
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Welcome! We are so glad that you joined us. You are absolutely right. It is strange that those who oppose women fail to see those scriptures that give women and men the same status before God. They don’t ever ask us about those scriptures.
We appreciate your voice. Please continue with us as we seek to combine our voices, and our actions, and claim our equality.
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Good point, Estelle. We also have to ask why the temple viel was torn in two when Jesus died on the Cross if only women are to have spiritual mediator on earth. Women are promised the same Holy Spirit as men. They do not need a HUMAN spiritual “head”. (Even though Head in Greek does not mean authority at al but they claim it doesl)
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