Meanness – an old-fashioned word for a modern situation

Meanness is a word we don’t use much anymore.

We rarely say a person is mean, but it was a common expression many years ago.  We all knew what it meant.

Mean was what you were when you did something that you knew beyond a doubt that what you were doing would hurt somebody, but you did it anyway.

It’s time to bring out that word again and use it against those who teach hierarchy, patriarchy, male headship, and male leadership.

Those teachings are designed to denigrate women. They are also designed to puff up men.

Many years ago, everyone was concerned with WWJD – What Would Jesus Do?  We got hung up on what kind of car Jesus would drive and numerous other trivialities.  We didn’t ask if Jesus would write books promoting male leadership over women, or if He would write comments underneath blogs on the Biblical meaning of certain scriptures that would limit women using their spiritual gifts for leadership over men and women, or if he would invite a woman to preach at his weekly church.

We did not ask if Jesus would preach on Sunday morning that women had an obligation to graciously submit to their husbands because by doing so, they would be submitting to Jesus himself.

So here we are today with seminars, blogs, books, movies, sermons, discussions, Bible Studies, and the list goes on, extolling God’s so-called grand design that women are to submit to their husbands, and to all males in a church.

That is mean.  That is unmitigated meanness. That is getting pleasure from hurting someone.

Today as I drove home there were two small turtles crossing the road.  I pulled over to the side and let them slowly make their way across the street.

It would have been mean to have deliberately attempted to drive over those little turtles. You know it and I know it.  It is not something that I would do, but throwing rocks at turtles sunning by a pond is something that was done years ago by young boys.

These boys have grown up and now they are throwing rocks at women.  Just for the fun of it.  They could leave us alone. They could help us across the street. They could at least pull over and allow us to cross to the other side unmolested.

But they prefer to write blogs, preach sermons, hold complementarian marriage seminars, and gig us in their meanness.

Do they really believe the Bible teaches that men are designed to be leaders over women?

If you are tired of mean boys who have grown up and are still throwing rocks just for the fun of it, will you speak up? Will you get your head out from under your shell and demand the right to cross the street, to preach, to be who God called you to be, with rocks being thrown at you?  If you are, join us!

About bwebaptistwomenforequality

Shirley Taylor writes with humor and common sense, challenging the church body to reclaim equality for Christian women.
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29 Responses to Meanness – an old-fashioned word for a modern situation

  1. Is it “mean” to communicate the message of the Cross? That we are to deny ourselves and take up our own cross daily? That is quite the Kafka-trap you have found yourself in, cut off from your own salvation.

    You want to have men stop throwing rocks at you? Maybe it’s time you stop throwing rocks at them. What gives you the right, the authority to throw rocks at the SBC? Isn’t there a church that agrees with you ideology? Why does everyone have to conform to your worldview? It all seems very intolerant and hateful of you.


    • Whoa! I think I touched a soft spot, called a mean spirit, in you. I supposed by who gave me the authority to throw rocks you mean that I am a female and cannot speak against the SBC. I have every right to talk about the SBC, having sent my money, my time, my kids, my husband, my work and my love there for 53 years. I don’t care if you throw rocks at me. What I care about is all other women you seek to fence in your man made pen. There are churches that agrees with me, and that should cause you to wonder where you are going wrong. Art, what is the difference between me wanting everyone to conform to my world view, and you wanting everyone to conform to your world view? As for intolerant and hateful, look at your own words.

      > Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 21:28:08 +0000 > To: >


      • That is a specious argument. You are a fifth columnist promoting humanism over Christ and that is abundantly clear. The Masai call hyena’s “doctors” because they identify the sick and “euthanize” them. That is the way I view your ministry, making the body of Christ stronger and helping define the edges. Believers will be able to detect this heresy from space. Good job.


      • Mara says:

        Male Headship is the heresy.
        Male Headship has cut more women off from the cross than you will ever want to know.
        Women have fled and are still fleeing the church because of the unjust heresy of Male Headship. They have fled to Paganism and Atheism and other isms because of the monopoly Male Headship has built up to bolster its false authority, linking it to Jesus when Jesus said:

        Matthew 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

        But Male Headship says, “No, there is more than One leader than Christ. We are your leader too, like Christ.”

        Male Headship is an idol that many are realizing and denouncing. Cutting off Male Headship is not cutting off our salvation. It is making a straighter path to that salvation.

        Hopefully the women who have fled the abuse of Male Headship can be won back to the saving grace of Jesus Christ their true salvation. Male Headship can save no one.


      • What you seem to be saying Mara is that women will only participate in belief systems where they are in charge, regardless of the truth of them. That has to be one of the worst denigrations of women I have seen. Unless we get our pet ideologies addressed we’ll take our ball and go play with the athiests? That pretty much sums up my argument in a nutshell, your perception of equality is more important than than the truth, the Cross or Christ. The problem is that the Holy Spirit tells women to treat their husband as the Church treats Christ. Period. If we as Christians can’t be obedient in the explicit commands directed towards us I don’t think there is any hope for salvation at all.

        Feminism is a recent cultural development. It is the prism you insist on seeing the Bible, history and God through. It is humanism.

        For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
        (1Co 1:17-31)

        Feminists are glorying in their carnal female flesh. That flesh is not “in Christ”.

        For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
        (Gal 3:27-29)

        Nor is the husbands.

        That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
        (Rom 8:4-10)

        The minute you identify with the flesh you are enemies with God. Proper submission comes through obedience to Him, not by men screeching about headship or by women screeching about equality. Both are using a throat of flesh.


      • Retha says:

        “What you seem to be saying Mara is that women will only participate in belief systems where they are in charge, regardless of the truth of them.”
        Mara, ignore her, she is a liar and clearly doing the same thing as the accuser of the bretheren.
        You distinctly said: “Male Headship is the heresy.
        Male Headship has cut more women off from the cross than you will ever want to know.
        Women have fled and are still fleeing the church because of the unjust heresy of Male Headship… Male Headship … bolster (its) false authority,”

        Mara, you clearly said women are fleeing from heresy because they can see it is untrue, and looking for truth elsewhere. As such, her starting premise about you is wrong. And anyone with reading comprehension will see Christian women do not want to be “in charge” but on the same level, taking equal responsibility in every meaningful task that God gives them.


      • Retha says:

        That is a specious argument. “You are a fifth columnist promoting humanism over Christ and that is abundantly clear.”

        Quote some words of Christ and some words of humanism, then some idea of Shirley’s, showing how she is closer to humanism.


      • I think he meant filth. As in filthy. Not 5th. Which shows how insulting Art can be when someone doesn’t agree with his doctrine.

        > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 05:02:26 +0000 > To: >


    • I thought I Art Laughing was a male. Turns out she is a she. Please read her comments about my latest blog. Appears she doesn’t like it.

      > Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 21:28:08 +0000 > To: >


      • Retha says:

        I didn’t get much further than the header on the link:
        “Empathy – Gift or curse?”

        My first thought was: “Mar 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd…”
        And “Romans 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.”
        And “when you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for me – Jesus have so much empathy that he is neglegted when the least is neglected.

        The attitude of that site is so anti-Christ that anyone who approves is most likely not someone a Christian should learn from. (I banned site owner empathological from my blog some time ago for dishonesty.)


  2. Mara says:

    Art: “What you seem to be saying Mara is that women will only participate in belief systems where they are in charge, regardless of the truth of them.”

    Okay, I may read past this first sentence of yours sometime tonight or tomorrow.

    But for now let me address you very directly because you are totally not getting it.

    No, I’m not saying that these women will only participate in a belief system where they are in charge regardless of the truth that is in them. Get that misunderstanding out of your head and read what I actually wrote, not what you assume about me, my position, and the women I am talking about.

    What I am saying is that these women participated in the “Male Headship” version of Christianity, where Male Headship is held in great esteem and even looked upon as part of the gospel message and perhaps even needed for salvation. What they found, in this “Male Headship” version of Christianity, was a bunch of arbitrary males, getting puffed up through some perceived superiority. Some of these women (and their children) have suffered a great deal at the hand of their Male Heads within their homes . And when they went to the Male Leadership (Male Heads of the church) they were told to submit more. If they submit more, then their Heads would straighten up and start acting like Christians. And in fact, these women were often blamed because they did not submit enough to their Head and that was the reason they were being abused and mistreated.

    The problem with the assumption you make in your sentence up there is that you assume that I want to be in charge of the church and that I want women to be in charge of the church RATHER than men.

    You couldn’t be more far off.

    Because, you see, Art. You suffer from the worldly concept of, Either Or” thinking. Either men are in charge. Or women are in charge.

    You don’t understand checks and balances in marriage and the church.

    The founding fathers clambered for checks and balances in the U.S. government. because they understood that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Men get this in government. They don’t get it when it comes to families and church governments.

    Many men, when you teach them that they are the “Heads” of their home, they become little dictators, lording it over their women.

    These women did not leave because they were not in charge.

    They left because the “Male Headship” doctrine spawned abuse and injustice.

    This is what I told you. It is unjust. It has been proven it again and again. Women have fled abuse and injustice. They haven’t done what men have done. Men are the ones that say, “If I can’t be the boss them I’m leaving.” That’s a man thing.

    Women leave to escape, sometimes with just their lives, their children, and the clothes on their backs.

    I say all this to tell you that you had better BACK OFF your accusation in this area that you are ignorant of and you are way out of line.

    Women have escaped to Paganism and Atheism which is a crying shame because neither of those hold any salvation for them.

    Salvation is in Jesus Christ alone.

    But the heresy and Phariseeism of “Male Headship” has slammed the door shut on these women because it worships the “Male Head” over and above Jesus Christ.

    Again, I may get to the rest of your comment and deal with it tomorrow.

    But for tonight I only have time to deal with your false assumption about women. Stop projecting on them the male tendency of wanting to be in charge.
    That’s not it.
    What we are standing against is the enslaving of women to the idol of “Male Headship”.

    Galatians 55 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.


      • Mara says:

        Okay, Art.

        I see that you have no respect for me or the women I speak of. You never had it. I was trying to get you to open your eyes and see what is happening under your nose but you are determined to remain in your blindness.

        You just want to laugh in our faces and tell us that we don’t matter to you or to God. You want to trample under your feet those who don’t fit into your mold of what is acceptable and tell them that their pain isn’t real and/or doesn’t matter.

        Since it is obvious that you love the law and your pet doctrine more than people, I have nothing further to say to you.

        So go coddle your pet doctrine on your own blog and let those of us who actually care about the walking wounded, those chewed up and spit by the church,,. let us do the actual work of Jesus Christ, redirecting people back to their Healer. You have nothing to offer them but to slam the door of salvation in their faces like the Pharisees Jesus contended with.

        Carry on in your own blindness and self-righteousness. There is nothing for you to see here because you refuse to see the truth of the matter.


      • No, it isn’t that. The premise that women are being corralled into “man-made fences” just makes me laugh. I get the picture that you gals imagine yourselves to be modern day rustlers “liberating” the Church “livestock” like Spur in “The Man from Snowy River”. Your language is all about abuse and equality about the “pain” of submitting in marriage, that men are hypocrites and heretics driving poor women into the arms of atheism and paganism. The elaborate threat matrix you’ve narrated sounds like something straight from “Rules for Radicals instead of the Bible, and yet men are “mean”.

        Their isn’t room for any of this sharp elbowed baloney in Christ.

        That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.
        (1Co 16:16)

        Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
        (Eph 5:21-23)

        Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
        (Col 3:18)

        By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
        (Heb 13:15-17)

        Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
        (Jas 4:7)

        Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
        (1Pe 2:13-14)

        Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
        (1Pe 5:5-6)

        Submission is an aline concept to social justice warriors. They want to bring in the “revolution” like they have everywhere else. Man-made rebellion. If it doesn’t clash with the Holy Spirit then you haven’t found a Church. There is unity and equality in Christ, de facto, there isn’t a revolution.


      • Art, go take a cold shower. You are so far off base that it is laughable.

        > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 13:42:53 +0000 > To: >


      • It’s funny, maybe someone can explain to me why if women need to “escape” that men have been exiting in droves? Seems like it is the men that have had enough of Church. I would point a steady finger at the screeching of feminists. But you “gotta catch ’em all”!

        I suppose it must be the patriarchy of soft expectations where men get a “man-up” message on Father’s Day and women get anointed special sinless precious snowflakes on Mother’s Day that has you gals all so cranked up. How the men are getting clotheslined for not loving enough and how any suggestion that women are failing is met with blood-curdling banshee screeches. That has got to suck.

        Maybe you should make a more thorough list of Churches that don’t do this, that don’t have special screenings of “Fireproof” and “Courageous” where men are challenged to be “doubly accountable”. When you do, I’ll have a bunch of guys who might be interested in checking some of them out.


  3. bwebaptistwomenforequality says:
    September 9, 2013 at 11:39 am

    Well, of course, it was mocking John Piper. Why not? This man distorts the scriptures in favor of man. You bet I can mock him.

    > Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 15:36:48 +0000 > To: >


  4. Mara says:

    Retha: “Mara, ignore her, she is a liar and clearly doing the same thing as the accuser of the bretheren.”

    Thanks, Retha. Sometimes I argue with people just a little beyond where I should. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. But you are right. The more Art vented his/her ragging hatred the more it became clear that he/she isn’t interested in the justice side of the Truth, he/she’s only interested in stomping other people down into the tiny boxes he/she believes that his/her little god has made for them.

    No love. Only pure, pharisitical hatred. A hatred so far gone that it will blatantly lie to confuse and shame their perceived ‘enemy’.


  5. Its sad to watch someone live with such a bitter nature, and the need to attach such motives, intentions, etc to others.

    Sadly, they aren’t interested in the pain the legalistic rules and beliefs systems have caused families. Its always believe it or ELSE (insert your motive and intention) that normally is dreamed up as an ‘effective’ way of shaming them into their place.

    Yes, that type does tend to get under my skin at times. Mostly, I just pity them. They spew out so much hate, and contempt for others that aren’t like them – and then claim its love. They think they are comfortable of course, but their nature is repelling to most. Then they use the excuse that the bible states they would ‘hated’. Denial at its best. They can be as nasty and ugly as possible all under the guise of some cherry picked verses – all the while ignore the spirit behind those words.


  6. Mabel says:

    Reminds me of the Pharisees. Nail Jesus on the cross because Jesus did not follow the Pharisees’ perceived ways of keeping the law. The modern day Pharisees will nail everyone who does not buy the Male Authority Hierarchy Structure System they ascribe to God.


  7. ”’It’s funny, maybe someone can explain to me why if women need to “escape” that men have been exiting in droves? Seems like it is the men that have had enough of Church. I would point a steady finger at the screeching of feminists. But you “gotta catch ‘em all”!”’

    I have to truly giggle at comments like this. I mean where do these people go to church? (snickers) How many ‘screeching feminists’ – the way its normally described by the fear mongers – do you know that go to church? Unless you are trying to make a point like she seems to be? Pretty much none. (shivers) …..yet they are everywhere (eyes moving back and forth in fear, searching under desk…WHEEW I’m safe none there either!)!

    Seriously. There is absolutely NO logic behind a statement like this. I guess what the poster forgot to look at? Its not just the ‘men’ leaving the church in droves. There has been plenty of documentation to back that up as well. I guess because that’s not in the bible we ignore it as well?The irrational statements like the above could very much be the reason why ‘humans’ leave in droves. Seriously…who thinks like that?


    • Mara says:

      I wasn’t going to say much more about Art cause I was pretty much done at her “LOL” at the pain of women.

      But yes, her comment about men leaving church made me know that she had been drinking the Mark Driscoll et al Kool-Aid. If women leave church it’s because they are mad that they aren’t in charge (no abuse here, I don’t care how much documentation there is). If men leave the church it’s the screeching feminists fault.
      Her view is so off-balanced and such a sad display of misogyny.


  8. Mara says:

    Check out this post at Wordgazer’s Words

    I strongly suspect that Art suffers from accepting this perverted teaching hook, line, and sinker.

    No wonder s/he treated us as evil.
    Here’s quote from a teaching against the Jezebel Spirit.

    “When it comes to Jezebel, you can forget about praying for her to come to truth and repentance. You will be wasting your precious time. Also, you must never sympathize with her. You must be 100% against her, and stop having hopes for her recovery and well-being! She is not your sister or brother in the Lord. She is living in the strength of demonic soul power, absolutely sold out to doing evil, and completely out of the will of God and obedience to God. She is her own master, and ultimately she serves Satan.”

    This is must be how Art could justify the evil manner in which (s)he dealt with us. (S)He may have been poisoned by this false doctrine.


    • I tried to comment, but could not read the last word, nor could I understand the spoken word. But this is what I wanted to say: Accusations of witchcraft is alive and well, and nourished in the charismatic (and perhaps others) church. I was told by a relative who is an Assembly of God that I had a Jezebel spirit because I desire equality. I have been told by others “I smell sulphur” when responding to my blog or emails. It makes it easy to see how women were burned at the stake and tortured for over 400 years. The sad thing is that the Church body will not speak up against those who continue to perpetuate it. Thanks for this blog. Shirley > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 17:30:23 +0000 > To: >


      • krwordgazer says:

        Shirley, are you saying you couldn’t comment on my blog? Or that you couldn’t read it? Or both?


      • I couldn’t comment. I saw the two words and recognized the first, but the second word I could not figure out what the letters were. I am a secretary and used to figuring out awful handwriting, but this one stumped me. So I tried the sound. The background noise would not let me distinguish what the letters were, or even when the letters started.

        > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 05:54:24 +0000 > To: >


      • Mara says:

        Shirley, if you can’t read it, you can ask for another. I’ve had to do that more than once on places like KR’s. It won’t delete your comment.


      • krwordgazer says:

        Yes, Google has a little circular-pointing arrow next to the anti-spam words. If you can’t read them, click on that and you’ll get a new set. You can do that as often as you want. Thanks for trying to comment, anyway!


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