We really should not have to be here, I kept thinking last week at the Christians for Biblical Equality conference in Pittsburgh.
We are 21st century women and we are still fighting for the freedom that Christ gave us through his blood and resurrection.
We should not have to have been there.
We are intelligent, educated women who know the Lord, and who love being in Christian service to our fellow Christians, and for our Lord.
We should not have had to be there.
But we were there because narrow-minded pastors, Christians, seminary professors and others, insist that women are held to a rigid interpretation of the scriptures that seem to restrict women from serving God as pastors and deacons.
We should not have had to be there.
But upon leaving we were told that next year the Christians for Biblical Equality meeting will be held in Colombia.
We should not have had to make plans for next year.
When, Lord?
When will women not have to fight for the equality that you gave us at our creation?
How long do you want to wait? We have waited and waited. We have begged for recognition of our equality. How many more conferences do you want to attend? How many blogs do you want to write for gender equality? What is your deadline? When will you demand full equality in the church and home?
bWe Baptist Women for Equality's Blog 
Shirley:
I agree it is a shame in the year 2013 that women are not recognized as equals. To be told by anyone that the Bible restricts the services of women is a misintepretation of the Bible IMO.
So many people that need to hear the word of God and yet half or more of the world’s population is told their services are not welcome because they are a woman.
Satan himself could not have come up with a better way to keep the Gospel from so many lost people and/or divide the church over this issue.
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You are right, Tom, and it seems to be spreading. They have an evangelistic fervor in preaching and teaching male headship, while those who oppose it do not have an evangelistic fervor to oppose it.
> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2013 23:01:54 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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I am slowly realizing that what keeps women from serving is the modern concept of “church”, in which layers of hierarchy are in place. When our senior pastor planned a whole month of sermons to prep the congregation for the day that women can preach and be ordained in our church, he also said that men still are created to have some distinct responsibilities, i.e. male headship. However, men can delegate. This is a big loop hole in the male headship teaching that you can drive a truck through. The smart ones realize that women are useful and can contribute a lot. So they say: I now delegate you to preach and I have the authority to ordain you. This camp is the softest of the hierarchalists, reserving the ‘lead pastor” role for men only but delegating everything else out, even to women.
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😛
Ugh. Ick. Sorry I don’t have anything more articulate to share about that situation, Mabel.
So, women will be able to preach not because of the Holy Spirit but because of a man/men? Or is the man/are the men in question permitting the Holy Spirit to speak, finally, even when it is housed in a woman?
I’m confused.
😉
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Hi Mabel
Much agreement when you write…
“I am slowly realizing that what keeps women from serving is the modern concept of “church”, in which layers of hierarchy are in place.”
Yes – “the modern concept of church” – Is suspect. And NOT in the Bible.
And – The modern concept of pastor/leader/reverend – Is NOT in the Bible.
In the Bible…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Maybe His Disciples knew something?
“the modern concept of church” does NOT?
And – Don’t know if you ever checked out the word “Church” in the Bible…
I mean – Print out every verse – read them over and over again…
Check out the Greek for Ekklesia – what it means…
Then Ask Jesus – What does “the Church of God” look like in the Bible?
In the Bible?
Did any of *His Disciples?*
*Go to* Church?
*Join* a Church?
*Lead* a Church?
*Plant* a Church?
*Pastor* a Church?
*Attend* a Church?
*Tithe* to a Church?
*Look for* a Church?
*Teach* Go to Church?
*Bring their friends* to a Church?
*Apply for Membership* in a Church?
*Call themselves Leader* in a Church?
*Call themselves Teacher* in a Church?
*Build, or buy, a building* called Church?
*Give silver, gold, or money* to a Church?
*Become – Pastors* – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews – in a Church. 😉
These are ALL taught in “the modern concept of church” – Yes?
But – NOT in the Bible.
If you desire to be one of His Disciples?
And NOT one of His Disciples did any of these things…
Why do you? 🙂
Jesus, He is the head of the Body, (The ekklesia, the Called Out Ones.)
The Church….
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Thanks, I appreciate your words. Yes, we have taken church to a level that was not in the Bible. But I don’t think that all of it is wrong. I am a church secretary and really love members of the church!
Like you, I think a bunch of it is wrong. Christians have been down through the ages, both the most helpful in Christianity and the most detrimental to Christianity.
> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 14:34:40 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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Personally I don’t think we need the organizations called “church” to be christians. Maybe some day I will return to a church.
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Ok. Let me go on record again. I love church. I am employed by a church. I go to church 5 days a week.
> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 22:15:03 +0000 > To: bwebaptist.women@live.com >
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Hi Shirley
Mable was talking about “what keeps women from serving.”
In my experience – Nothing can keep a female, or a male, from “Serving” Jesus.
You do NOT have to be a member of a 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, that the IRS calls church, to “Serve” Jesus.
You do NOT need a non-biblical “Title/Position” to “Serve” Jesus.
In John 12:26, Jesus said…
If *any man serve me,* let him *follow me;*
and where I am, there shall also *my servant be:*
if *any man serve me,* him will my Father honour.
The challenge that most folks have, male and female, is….
You do NOT get much recognition from “the World System” being a “Servant.”
You do NOT get recognition from “the Religious System” being a “Servant.”
BUT – ALL His Disciples called themselves “Servants.”
Recognition in “the modern concept of church” comes with “Titles/Positions.”
“the modern concept of church” teaches “Hierarchy.”
Jesus taught – “Lower Archy.”
Jesus, as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.
Why isn’t “Servant” good enough?
In John 5:41-44, Jesus said…
I receive not honour from men…
…How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another,
and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
In John 7:18, Jesus said…
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory…
When someone is called – pastor/leader/reverend?
Are they receiving honor from men?
When someone calls themself – pastor/leader/reverend?
Are they speaking of them self – and seeking their own Glory?
Today in “the modern concept of church” it’s about who gets the “Titles.”
The – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Reputation – Recognition…
That comes with these “Titles” – Male or Female.
“the modern concept of church” is NOT about being one of His Disciples…
Learning directly from Jesus. NO middle man.
“the modern concept of church” is NOT about being His Sheep – Following Jesus.
My sheep – Hear MY Voice – I Know Them – and – They Follow Me. John 10:27.
IMO – “the modern concept of church” is about – Pray – Pay – Stay – and – Obey.
🙂
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Of course, you are right about nothing can keep us from serving, but we cannot serve in our church houses (which you are not fond of!) but Mabel is right also about the church officially denying women the right to serve fully.
> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 16:09:14 +0000
> To: bwebaptist.women@live.com
>
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Since I have been on this journey to educate, advocate and agitate for gender equality in the body of Christ, in or out of church, I have become a lot more sensitive to many things that used to not bother me. I cringe during wedding when the bride’s father or parents (more progressive) gave her away . I call absolutely NO-ONE Reverand. I don’t mind calling someone pastor, but I usually follow that by their first name. I call my pastor Paul. Sometimes Pastor Paul. ( he is one of many pastors in our church) He was one of us before he went into seminary when he was 50 yrs old. He is a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. The one with a huge heart to serve. He is ALWAYS serving. A rare breed. I go to a tri lingual church, and I serve in the Cantonese Ministry. The other 2 ministries are Mandarin and English. I can see the benefit of a church. We have been literally overwhelmed by new comers lately. Somehow God just give us new comers. Some Christians moving into our city, some non-christians coming with friends. Having a building, and structured program helps. We have a sports ministry on a week night that attracts a lot of non Christians. They come to play table tennis and learn line dancing. Then some started to come to worship, fellowship, small group, even Sunday School. I have nothing against the set up, but I am up in arms when the lead pastor ( very nice, sincere, loving man) fell for 9Marks book on membership. I am screaming bloody murder and told my pastor I WILL NOT BE OBEDIENT if told to teach the 9Marks book on membership. We’ll see. I am fearless.
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I love that where two or more are gathered together in Jesus’ name, He is in our midst. After an odyssey of several years trying to find a basic, Bible believing and teaching church that does not advocate prejudice against anyone’s gender, that does not practice the New Age and occultic practices that have become more and more commonplace in the apostate church, that does not build a church on a business model of marketing vs being led by the Holy Spirit no matter the size, I am extremely grateful to attend small home “church,” i.e., the living breathing members of the Body of Christ who come together to worship and allow free expression of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as led BY the Holy Spirit. I doubt I’ll ever attend a traditional denominational or so-called non-denominational church organization again. At least not in our area which is over run by Emergent churches, New Apostolic Reformation churches, Dominionist churches, and so on. (see a blog post I wrote about this here: http://pnissila.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/what-in-the-world-is-going-on-in-church-how-to-figure-out-whatsemerging-what-you-can-do-and-a-story-that-might-sound-familiar/.
I will continue to pray for those of the Lord has led to stay in your more traditional “churches” as you work to free women for the service God ordained for us. Your ministries are very important.
Blessings,
Phyllis
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oops. that should read: “I shall continue to pray for those of you the Lord has led to stay…”
Phyllis
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Mabel
Sounds like you fellowship with some sincere folks who love Jesus.
Sorry to hear about…
“but I am up in arms when the lead pastor ( very nice, sincere, loving man)
fell for 9Marks book on membership.”
Yes – Battling Balony does take someone who is fearless. 😉
IMO – That 9Marks stuff is all about controlling the folks.
And where is someone signing a “Church Membership” form in the Bible?
9Marks even says “The Local Church” has heavens “Authority”
“for declaring who on earth is a Kingdom citizen…”
And – “The Local Church” has heavens “Authority”
“To remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s Kingdom.”
Just like – “The state’s representative authority, … ability to end a person’s life.”
Wow – Mere Fallible Humans – declaring with heavens “Authority”
Who is a Kingdom citizen – And who is “Removed” from Christs Kingdom.
Now that’s Power. 😉 NO I’m NOT a big fan of “The Local Church.”
—————-
http://www.9marks.org/blog/what-are-keys-kingdom
“And Jesus is not addressing the apostles or the universal church here. He’s envisioning a local church. The local church, it appears, has been given the apostolic keys of the kingdom. As a result…
The local church has heaven’s authority for declaring who on earth is a kingdom citizen and therefore represents heaven.
Jesus has authorized the local church to stand in front of a confessor, to consider the confessor’s confession, to consider his or her life, and to announce an official judgment on heaven’s behalf. Is that the right confession? Is this a true confessor? It’s just like Jesus did with Peter. And it will do these things with the ordinances which are established in Matthew 26 and Matthew 28: the Lord’s Supper and baptism.”
———–
“The state’s representative authority, we said in chapter one, is seen most clearly in its ability to end a person’s life. Likewise, the church’s representative authority in Christ’s Kingdom is seen most clearly in its ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom.”
———–
My recommendation is – NEVER sign a “Church Membership” Form…
Today they are legal documents protecting the 501 (c) 3, Corporation.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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pnissila
I read your article at the link you left. Good stuff – Much agreement…
It is amazing what is going on today in “The Local Church” – When you look.
I left “The Corrupt Religious System” in the early 90’s.
Through much Pain, Tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.”
Wasn’t happy then – But I had NO place to go – but to go to Jesus.
And Jesus is the best… 😉
And today the freedom, the liberty in Christ is wonderful.
Be blessed in your search for “Truth” – Jesus…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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When will women not have to fight for equality?
When everyone, and I mean everyone, in the church is walking in the Spirit ALL the time, and is maturing and growing at the pace they should be. In this fallen world, don’t hold your breath, the battle continues, it will be ever met, it will not end until Jesus returns. Have I encouraged you today?
Really, we not only need to fight on this front, but on every other front that has been mentioned in the comments. The church is riddled with false teaching, heresy, false preachers, abuse, control, manipulation and frankly, gender subordination is really only one part of it, and really a very low level part of it. Please don’t misunderstand me, I came from a hugely abusive misogynistic church which I attended for 15 years and cannot stomach the authoritarian model, mainly because it has no basis in true gospel regeneration of the old man. Every other religion on the face of the planet, every other culture, every period of history has seen women, people of colour, children, and other minorities blasted by those who have the power and the passion to destroy them. The Jewish people have been hounded from their homes for centuries, the Nazis were not the first and will not be the last. Therefore pushing and controlling women to fit into this pre-defined role, defined of course by men, is NOT new, and therefore cannot be claimed to be Christian. It is a result of sin, not of God. Developing a theology based on the thinking of the old man is manifestly being ‘conformed to the world’ as Paul warned us agains in Romans 12. We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, and our minds are to be renewed to the point that we can know the will of God. I don’t see anything new or transformed, or transforming, in this insane urge to shut women up and stop them from teaching and preaching. Dear Lord! Women who are not allowed to walk in the Spirit? What kind of theology is this?
In the last days, simply being a bible believing Christian will become a crime, you can see it coming down the pike already. The disdain, the contempt and the hostility, especially in the media towards those who hold the Bible to be not only true but the authority of God himself are being character assassinated, and will continue to do so.
In my mind, the last days, the Tribulation (should we be here to live through it), will be the time when finally those who believe will be united in our suffering. In those days, it really truly will NOT matter what you believe about the role of women, both women and men, children and adults will be assessed on whether they take the mark of the beast or not, and those who do not will be hunted down and destroyed. What greater time of unity will there be when we will uniformly be oppressed and those in authority will not be Christian at all, but followers of the ultimate False God and False Doctrine.
Yes indeed, those times will be here soon, and in those days, there will be a great need for those who have spent their days in intimate relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, following Him in humility and obedience and learning to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. After all, if we are walking in the Spirit, we have the power and the authority against the principalities and powers of this present age, and in the end it is they who work against us, whether it be as women or as men.
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Welcome! Thanks for your comment. I suspect women will always have to fight for equality, but I sure hope at some point we have more than we have now! But we will always have to fight for it. Thanks for the reminder.
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