I don’t want to preach

I don’t want to preach.  I don’t want to serve communion as a deacon. 

Tomorrow we come together to reinforce what we already know about women’s equality in the church.

I just want to be able to walk into my church and not feel that my church holds it against me that I am a woman.

If you want the same thing, pray for us. Pray for this message to be so compelling to those of us who have gathered together, that it will not stop when the last song is sung.

Pray for us.

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About bwebaptistwomenforequality

Shirley Taylor writes with humor and common sense, challenging the church body to reclaim equality for Christian women.
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17 Responses to I don’t want to preach

  1. Barney says:

    Read Galatians 3:26 – 4:3 which has nothing to do with Preaching or being a deacon!
    As those who believe in Christ Jesus we are all heirs of the Promise.
    Preaching and teaching is addressed elsewhere.

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    • Barney, I am not sure what you are saying here, but I have a conference today to promote what you don’t want promoted, as I have learned from previous comments by you.

      When the early church was deciding what was important to tell the Gentiles – they decided to tell them that they did not have to be circumsized. Circumsision was a male thing. Now men and women would not be set apart from each other, neither had to wear on their bodies a sign of their religion. Jews and Gentiles could go to the public urinal and not be different because of their religion.

      That is a unity of spirit. Brought about because of Christ.

      But you still want to separate men and women according to their body parts and tell women that they can love the Lord with all their heart, have faith to move mountains, but they can’t preach or serve a cup of grape juice and a piece of bread because they are women.

      I would like to introduce you to the liberating Jesus, but I expect that you and others like you, already know that, but reject it because you still want to set us apart. And you beat us over the heads with the Bible. Where is Jesus? What did you do with Jesus?

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  2. Mara says:

    Yeah, the verses that talk about preaching(prophesying) and teaching would be like here:

    Joel 2:28 “It will come about after this
    That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
    And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    Your old men will dream dreams,
    Your young men will see visions.
    29 “Even on the male and female servants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

    And here:

    Proverbs 31:26 She opens her mouth in wisdom,
    And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

    Among other places.

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  3. Barney says:

    Reblogged this on Exethento.

    Like

  4. amoslove says:

    Barney

    You write on your post at “Exethento.”
    http://exethento.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/34/
    “Divine Selection Criteria in 1 Timothy 3 and in Titus 1; where the gender of the spiritual leader of a Parish or Congregation is clearly prescribed. “

    Was wondering – Why, as a Lutheran, this Divine Selection Criteria “only”
    applies when “gender” is the issue? Why do male ”Leaders” get a free ride?
    Aren’t ALL the qualifications for male “elder/overseer” important to you? 😉

    Here are just three qualifications – 1 – Blameless. 2- Just. 3 – Holy.
    That most wanna-be’s, who want to be a “Pastor/Leader/Elder/Overseer”
    today *Will Ignore,* or “Will Twist,” in order to obtain this “Title/Position.”

    You mention Titus – And Titus 1:6-8 KJV – says it nicely. 😉
    6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*

    That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
    *Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    *Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.

    “Must be” seems to be a small word – but very important. Yes?
    Is – Blameless – important?

    1 – Blameless – Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    2 – Just – Strongs #1342 – dikaios – innocent, holy, just, meet.
    Thayers -1) righteous, observing divine laws.
    1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
    1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
    1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
    ……. is wholly conformed to the will of God…

    3 – Holy – Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    ….. religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.

    That’s the tough Divine Selection Criteria for “Pastor/Leader/Elder/Overseer.”
    Un-accused, un reprovable, innocent, faultless, free from wickedness…
    That’s some tough qualifications, 1 – Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy. Yes?

    And if a “Pastor/Leader/Elder/Overseer” does NOT meet the tough Criteria…
    Shouldn’t they be honest, and remove themselves?
    And be a good example to the flock?

    Yes – The “Divine Selection Criteria”… Titus 1:6-8… “is clearly prescribed.”

    Why do “you,” and other Lutherans, NOT adhere to ALL the ”Criteria?”

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  5. Mabel says:

    They must also be married, have more than one child, and the children be grown believers. Many elders have children who do not obey them perfectly.I never see elders being removed because their children do not behave, or not old enough to be believers, or have only one child.
    Legalists will always run into inconsistencies. Philip Payne explained in the CBE Houston how the 12 pillars of patriarchy is completely wrong interpretations. An interpretation that does not match the rest of Scriptures, taken out of context, without regard to individual circumstances and the culture then, is wrong and any wrong interpretation will lead to more wrong rules and regulations being heaped on trying to make it work. Wayne Grudem has a long laundry list of 80+items. Pharisees, anyone?

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  6. Barney says:

    “I just want to step into my church and not feel that my church holds it against me that I am a woman.”

    The short answer to this agony suffered by a believing woman is; “if your church holds your gender against you, you are in the wrong church!”
    It seems from the contributions on the “bWe Baptist Women for equality’s Blog” that a significant number suffer from spiritual discomfort due to a poorly explained interpretation of the Word of God.
    Firstly, as I suggested to Shirley Taylor, in answer to her blog, there is no difference in the salvation for women or men, I wrote “read Galatians 3:26 – 4:3.” All worshippers have equal rights to salvation – John 3:16 is quite clear on that – there is not a sliver of gender bias in that. I have never denied the equality of women and men in salvation, and I do not intend to do so now either.
    However, I do believe that man and woman were created different; had God decided that mankind (anthropos) would be identical – equal in all aspects – then God would have created us as a ‘hermaphrodite’ – no differences between the genders – with no need for one to be created from the dust of the earth and the other from the former’s rib. As Genesis teaches us, God in His wisdom first created Adam and then when He saw the need for a suitable helper, He created Eve from Adam’s rib, not from his head so that one could rule over the other, nor from his feet so that one could trample on the other.
    Secondly, the comment has been made why I used the gender qualification out of the many criteria in the Divine Selection Criteria, 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1; the other criteria also apply and whatever I wrote does not negate them in any way. The subject in the bWe Baptist Women for equality’s Blog involves clearly the wish of many women to be eligible to be ordained, and from the secular examples in the world it is not difficult to see that when women can hold executive positions in industry, in organisations and in other places in life, that the same would be wanted in the church.
    However, the church, whilst it is in the world is not of the world and as such has rules of its own which do not necessarily resonate with what the world practises and is used to. Here we come to what causes a lot of writing, discussion and sadly disagreement.
    The Christian faith has its own rules, which are interpretated with many denominational biases. I am no expert on Baptist Theology, but as a Lutheran I subscribe to and use “The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church” ‘The Book of Concord’. As in the Baptist denomination, there are differences among Lutherans also; e.g. the LC-MS and the ELCA. The former – like me – adhere more closely to the Confessions because it is based upon the Word of God, the latter less closely, only as far as it suits their agenda [This is not the place to discuss the ordination of those we should not even eat with. [1 Cor. 5:11]. Lutheran Doctrine states, and I subscribe to; “We believe, teach, and confess that the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and the New Testaments are the only rule and norm according to which all doctrines and teachers alike must be appraised and judged.” The Book of Concord, Formula of Concord, Part 1, Epitome 1.
    I have been asked “aren’t ALL the qualifications for male pastors important to you? I must answer, ‘Yes indeed they are’. But the main subject of the Baptist blog is the Ordination of males only; in an environment where females may be trained enough, where females would be capable, where females would be wanting to be Pastors. And therefore I have not stressed the other attributes of a Christian’s desire to serve God. It may be noted here that when we want to serve God, it must be HIS way not our way, and no matter how difficult it may be to be not chosen, we must do God’s will. I know, I too wanted to be a Pastor, but I would never pass the medical; I am a Vietnam veteran with 60% disability, I can still serve my Lord, as a hospital Chaplain, as a Newsletter Editor and in support of my Pastor as his Aide and as the Sacristan. For those Christians who are not ordained there are many options to serve; discover the options, decide which one you think will please God most, and go out and do it.

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    • Barney,

      You are simply too full of yourself male self. You reposted my blog on your blog and then tore it up. Fine and dandy. But you don’t know what you are talking about. Chuck Colson, who just died said “Who speaks for God?” Apparently you think you do. But good Christians argue differently.

      I will not engage in the scripture battle with you. I suggest you read Matthew 23, and everywhere you see Pharisee, you insert your name.

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  7. Mabel says:

    Barney, you think by not denying women salvation, you are being Godly, and you can deny them everything else. You are still living in the O.T. Even in the O.T. there is nothing about women, slaves not being saved. Gal 3:28 is about the New Covenant. Jews and Gentiles are no longer separate groups. Would you argue that only Jews can be leaders because God created a separate chosen people? No. In Jesus Christ, there is no Jew nor Gentile. The division is gone. God created men and women, and there are as many differences from one man to another man and from one woman to another woman, more so than the difference in the gender group. Other than biological differences, there is not one single trait that you can claim is exclusively male or female. Males are in general more analytical, but not all males are more analytical than all females. Females are more nurturing in general, but not every female is more nurturing than every male. The foundation of a lot of false teaching is this: God meant to have a caste system in the Body,. No, he does not want a gender caste system, any more than he wanted a jew/gentile caste system, which existed in the O.T. If only you can remove your blind spot, and have a humble learning spirit, you will not be able to see the truth. The Holy Spirit came down on both men and women, both prophesied, both are called to work along side each other (Romans Chapter 16 has a ton of women leaders) The only deacon (not deaconess) identified in the entire N,T. is Phoebe. Please read Philip Payne’s book Man and Woman, One in Christ. He used to think like you, but when challenged, he went on a journey to seek the truth. After 39 years of painstaking scholarship and leaving no stone unturned, he now campaigns tirelessly, selflessly, and sacrificially for women’s equal standing in the body of Christ. Hope you will remove the gender blinders from you eyes and humbly seek God’s truth. Don’t make the same mistake the Pharisees made. They are into what can people do and not do on Sabbath, and when Jesus did not “keep the law” as God intended, or so they thought, they nailed him on the cross. It is all about keeping the law with no understanding of God’s heart. The bible for them is written in stones, not in their hearts. Have a heart of God, please. No more gender caste system. No more double standard. No more sexism. Just having to justify what we can and cannot do is demeaning.

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  8. krwordgazer says:

    Barney said:

    “I just want to step into my church and not feel that my church holds it against me that I am a woman.” The short answer to this agony suffered by a believing woman is; “if your church holds your gender against you, you are in the wrong church!”

    According to what you have written yourself, apparently your church is also the wrong one. You have cited many reasons why you could not be ordained– but the one you did not mention is “because of my sex,” because in your case it is not true. Being male does not keep you from being ordained. Shirley’s sex does, and would in your church too– and yet you tell her your church doesn’t hold it against her that she’s a woman? That’s a contradiction.

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  9. Barney says:

    “I do not want to Preach. I do not want to serve Communion as a deacon”
    Yet what do you want more than salvation? What is it then that the church holds against you?
    Mabel said: “The division is gone” [?] However, babies continue to be born a male or female, the Divine design has not been abolished. Mabel claims that I still live in the OT times, funny that! I can read my various versions of the Holy Bible electronically, not only the various English, German, Dutch, and even some Greek and Latin translations of the MSS, but also some of the above from different denominational viewpoints; and yet the majority [if not all] of my quotes are from the first century or later; ‘living in OT times, hardly. Males may be more analytical than females and females maybe more likely to be nurturing than the average male, e.g. the female/male ratio in the nursing profession. IMHO God never meant to have a caste system, either based on race or on place of living. Mabel claims that I have a blind spot, and that I must have a humble learning spirit to be able to see the truth. Well, if I have this alleged blind spot, it is in failing to see the agenda of those who do not take the Word of God as inerrant and infallible. I agree that the Holy Spirit can come down on people regardless of gender; Mary of Nazareth, the Theotokos [Mother of God, lit. God bearer], is a prime example of this.
    On Romans 16, I am still looking for the ‘ton’ [1000?] of woman leaders. The Women’s Ordination supporters (WOS) among those who call themselves Christian have for a long time now argued over the proper translation and identification of the names and function of some of the ‘ton’ of ‘woman leaders’. Let us start at the beginning:
    • Verse 1. It is argued that Phoebe – a servant in KJV and in NIV’84 – is described as a diakonon in the MSS. The argument centres on whether we take the common interpretation of the word ‘diakonon’ to be servant, or as some Women’s Ordination proponents have suggested that she was an ordained servant of the church, I have not found any evidence for the ordination of Phoebe.
    • Verse 7. “Salute/greet Andronicus and Junia/Junias”. Here we open a whole can of worms.
    o There does not seem to be any argument that Andronicus is a male; however, the situation is different for Junia/Junias, there are two opinions on this;
     First Junia/Junias is a female, which is supported by many, if not all WOS.
     Second Junia/Junias is a male, which finds more support in the MSS if we take the punctuation and the accentuation into account. For if Junia/Junias was a female it would be spelled with the emphasis/accentuation on the ‘i’; however, in Romans it is spelled as Iouniân with the accent on the ‘a’. Junian or Julian was not – as some claim – an uncommon name in the first or second century; in 187 there was a Bishop with this name. Other forms of this name are known to us e.g. “Julius Caesar” [undoubtedly a male]; also the Julian calendar, referring to Julius Caesar who ordered this calendar to be used. Furthermore Julian d 363 Roman Emperor, Julian d 454 Bishop of Eclanum, and Julian d after 518 Bishop of Halicarnassus; ref Freund’s Latin Dictionary, Oxford, 1879/1980
     Julian as a female name would be spelled with the accentuation on the “i” as in “Ioulían” as in Romans 16:15.
     Andronicus and Iouniân were kinsmen and also his fellow prisoners, note the gender of ‘kinsmen and fellow in verse 7.
    It would be a waste of my time and yours to go on about the other 998 female leaders in the NT. Whilst the Pharisees went on about what one could do [or not do] on the day of rest; Pastors are not about this at all, Pastors [at least in my church] are about the administration of the Word and the Sacraments. Indeed, they are aided by the laity but that does not make the laity ordained servants of the church.
    This is long enough for now, I do not have the luxury of time to write blog after blog.

    Re: Krwordgazer:
    “If your church holds your gender against you, then you are in the wrong church.” (Bahnerth)
    In the USA there are two main Lutheran churches, the LC-MS and the ELCA, as there are two Lutheran churches in my country, the LCA and the AELC. Taking the USA example as a lead here, let’s compare the outcome of the ELCA’s decision to allow females to be ordained. As in some other denominations, the unscriptural ordination of those who are not the husband of one wife, has not only resulted in females to be ordained but also the ordination of those who are in an M2M or F2F relationship. I doubt that they live in accordance to God’s will.
    My Church [the LCA] highly respects woman and in my Parish we have female Chairpersons in each congregation, female Secretaries in each congregation, a male Treasurer ably assisted by a female Assistant Treasurer in the larger congregation and a female Treasurer in the smaller congregation. I do not think that gender is held against the females involved. Furthermore, both congregations each have a strong Ladies group.
    If Shirley does not want to preach or serve as a deacon, the ability to be ordained or not does not apply to her.

    Re: Amoslove
    Whilst IMHO all the Divine Selection Criteria apply [c.f. 1Tim 3 & 1 Titus] since the discussions here are about gender I have not concentrated on the other, albeit essential criteria.
    However, what I am more likely to concentrate on is doing the will of God, not the will of myself or of people who interpret the Holy Bible to suit their agenda. Hence, I use the Holy Bible as my primary reference as the inerrant and infallible Word of God, but being a mere human [anthropos] I am not perfect in following it to the letter. Who is?
    You write: “If a ‘Pastor …’ does NOT meet the tough criteria … Shouldn’t they be honest, and remove themselves? Yes, I have already commented on the conduct of ‘Pastors … ‘ with whom we are not supposed to keep company vide 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 in another response.
    Your last question is; “Why do ‘you’ … NOT adhere to ALL the criteria”?
    Only Jesus was completely free of sin and hence completely perfect; I am not, but I am trying to live as God wants me to, without deliberately breaking His commandments and His Word to suit my own agenda.
    I know, from previous responses, that there may be disagreement with what I wrote, so be it. To me that is nothing new.
    Barney

    The devil keeps man from good with a thousand machinations spewed from his belly, so that when a person sighs to do good, he pierces him with his shafts; and when he desires to embrace God with his whole heart in love, he subjects him to poisonous tribulations, seeking to pervert good work before God. And when a person seeks the viridity of virtue, the devil tells him that he does not know what he is doing, and he teaches him that he can set his own law for himself.
    HILDEGARD OF BINGEN, letter to the Abbot, c. 1166

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  10. krwordgazer says:

    Barney, there’s no point in arguing with someone like you. Hold your own viewpoints. God will have the last word in the end.

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  11. Mabel says:

    Barney, it will do you good to listen to Katie Hays story. God will judge those who are the cause of her immense suffering. Reading the bible at face value will no doubt have you say : thou shalt not covet your neighbor’s wife means you can covet your neighbor’s husband. Good grief. You really go over board in insisting Junia is a man. Lord help us. Barney, you need to learn from this woman:
    http://bltnotjustasandwich.com/2012/01/08/the-junia-evidence-x-transgendered-again/

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    • Barney says:

      I stated two cases on the gender of the person mentioned with Andronicus. You believe your version, I believe mine. Refer to Bishop Julianus in 187 AD, there is a significant amount of evidence that the disputed name can be masculine. The problem lies in the accentuation of the disputed name, especially when compared to that of Julia in verse 15.
      There is no cause or evidence for you to say that I would support someone [man or woman] coveting someone’s husband, this is absurd.

      However, I agree with one statement of yours “God help us.”

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  12. Mabel says:

    Many people claims that husbands love, wife submits (aka obey, husbands have last say, etc.), they say that’s what the bible says, that the instruction is gender specific. By the same logic, the 10 commandments should be similarly gender specific too. It only mentions covet wives, so it must only have wives in mind. Same logic.

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  13. Mabel says:

    quoting Stanley Gundry, whose father is the supreme hirarchicalist (no women allowed in any role in church & complete submission in the home), why he changed his mind (marrying a Godly woman who has a brain is also a factor, I think):
    “…hierarchicalism, if consistently held and applied, was its own undoing. This view holds that women are by God’s design inherently disqualified from leading and teaching men. .. if that is indeed the case, Scripture contradicts itself, because women throughout the biblical narrative did lead and teach men, with God’s apparent approval and blessing. … If it is not essential to the nature of being female, the whole hierarchical edifice begins to fall part because that is the foundation on which it is built.”
    Relatively few hierarchicalists follow the implications of their foundation to its consistent and logical conclusion. To do so would be to demonstrate the absurdity of the premise. …some instances (in Scripture) are viewed as exceptions to the rule, allowed by God because men did not step up to the challenge. Or, Women can prophesy, but not have the office of prophet. Or, women can teach, but not authoritatively. Or, Women can teach and preach, but only with the permission of or under the authority of her husband, or of men in general. These explanations strike me as contrived and desperate attempts to save the system and to preserve the benefits of male privilege themselves on just what a woman may do and under what circumstances. …the only thing that hierarchicalists agree on is that it is the men who get to tell women what they can do.
    page 99-100, How I changed my mind about women in Leadership, compelling stories from prominent evangelicals.

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