The Occupy Wall Street bunch brought to mind something called ‘grouptalk.”  It appears that whenever a group of like minded people get together they build each other up and reinforce the common perception.  They begin to speak as a group and what they say becomes acceptable to each in the group.  Even if that was not their original intent, they accept it.

Churches engage in grouptalk.  Denominations engage in grouptalk. 

Grouptalk commonly found in churches regarding women in ministry generally follow the same line of thinking.  They think it is original with them, but they are just repeating some of the same old phrases we have heard before.

For instance: 

Men and women have different roles in the church. We know men and women have different roles in church and that is what we are speaking out against. 

Women have babies and the men can’t, so we know God did not make man and woman equal.   Actually that gives a woman a role closer to the Christ figure in a marriage than it gives men.  She actually is willing to lay down her life to birth her child.

Only men were chosen to be one of the “twelve.”  Jesus could choose whoever he wanted to be one of the twelve.  We believe that he is choosing who he wants to choose now when he chooses women to be one of the thousands upon thousands.

Jesus came as a man, not as a woman. Look, it was 50/50.  Jesus had to come as either a man or a woman. I’m not upset because He didn’t appear as a woman, and you shouldn’t be puffed up because he appeared as a man.

In spite of these differences, men and women are still one in Christ.  The differences are far too important in complementarian restrictionists to suddenly declare that we are one in Christ.  They speak with forked tongue.

Men were given the right to teach and lead at the Creation.  Poor Adam.  Just got here and now he is to lead a woman when all he wants to do is eat.

Husbands are to take self-sacrificial roles.  Both husbands and wives take on sacrificial roles when it comes to raising children.  Mothers often take food from their own plate to see that her children are fed.

Why should men be slandered for following Christ’s instruction. Men are not being falsely accused for following Christ’s instruction.  Men are being edified with truth and knowledge that they otherwise refuse to see.

We should not judge a man’s conviction.Men and women both have convictions that are not biblically sound.  Remember the nut who predicted the world was coming to an end?

Compare women’s equality to some goddess cult. Bring women down by comparing her to some goddess cult she has never even heard of.

Praise women for their women’s job of teaching children and other women. Woman, you are a good teacher of your children.  You can even teach my children.  You are even worthy to teach other women.

Praise women for running the church because the men are absent. Well, that is just plain stupid.  The Word is the Word whether men or present or not.  Lottie Moon set the example.  “Send men,” she said.  “But until they get here, I will continue to teach.”  The men never arrived.

When a couple has prayed and prayed and still can’t come to a decision, someone has to decide what to do and that someone should be the man.  Well, well, well.  Now we do have a dilemma. Perhaps God did answer in prayer, but the husband didn’t hear well and said “keep praying!” Finally she gives in and viola, the man gets to make the decision.

You can’t have two captains running a ship. A marriage is not a ship, unless it is a partnership.

Don’t  judge the woman who chooses to submit to her husband.  If a woman willingly submits to her husband, that is her business.  But if she is willingly submitting because you have threatened God on her if she doesn’t, then she is not willingly submitting.

Don’t  judge the woman who chooses not to have authority over her brothers in Christ. Don’t you judge the woman who decides that no gender has the lock on having authority over another.

Will you help others who are seeking knowledge about women in ministry and in teaching positions in church?  Will you help other women who are confused about the teaching that they hear which tells them that they are to submit to men in all positions of authority in the church and in the home?


About bwebaptistwomenforequality

Shirley Taylor writes with humor and common sense, challenging the church body to reclaim equality for Christian women.
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11 Responses to Grouptalk

  1. Anne says:

    I agree with you on comps saying the same things over and over again. ‘Roles’, ‘authority and submission’, ‘equal but different’, ‘created to be’, ‘biblical’ (I’m starting to hate the sound of that word now, I’ve heard it so often for the wrong kind of use). Et cetera. It’s parrot talk. And stubborn parrot talk at that.

    By the way, I had a look at some ‘signs of a cult’ websites and found some similarities between CBMW / Danvers / Vision Forum etc.
    1) They say that their way of doing things is the only way to be biblical, godly, and truly happy. Any other way is labelled as evil, destructive, and rebelling against God. They ignore the grace of Jesus, focusing on works, and insist on being doctrine-led instead of Spirit-led.
    2) Anyone who opposes or questions these ideas are attacked and slandered, with an abundance of ad hominem instead of addressing the questions raised. Anyone who doesn’t follow their ideas in theory and/or practice is also slandered. They are likely to be ejected from the church (or bullied into leaving) and other members are encouraged not to interact with them.
    3) Language used to describe beliefs is often watered down, sugar-coated and sometimes downright deceptive. This is so that they can attract more followers – if they laid it out in black and white, nobody would join.
    4) Scripture is twisted, ignored, selectively chosen and repeated in various man-made contexts to support whatever they are trying to say. ‘Attachments’ are made to verses under the guise of interpretation e.g. wives submit to husbands = husbands have authority over wives. (This is also a sign of legalism). Satan can quote the Word of God too, by the way, and use it for his own ends. He did it with Jesus when He was in the desert.
    5) Sticking to the doctrine is seen as more important than the welfare of people. (Another sign of legalism).


    • Anne says:

      (Sorry for going off-topic.)


    • Vision Forum has been called a cult by another group. Vision Forum has a paper on their website disputing that they are a cult. But you know they say: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck.


      • Anne says:

        Yes, there’s suspicion to be had when a group has to publish a document insisting that they’re not a cult. Healthy, non-cultic organisations don’t HAVE to say it, because they show it.


    • Michelle says:

      I can’t *stand* the word “biblcal”, and prefer the word “christian”. I believe that “biblical” does not, as applied, encompass all of christian belief and practice. I’ve been exposed to people using the word “biblical” when they used the Bible as a rule book (as in, “Well, it wasn’t *unbiblical* of you to not take your husband’s name when you married…” 😛 ), and I sensed that it was somehow also being confused for a member of the Trinity.


  2. kbonikowsky says:

    Shirley, that is a great response crib sheet. You provide many good references in gender-equality apologetics.


    • Thanks! Some things just don’t have a scripture to go with it. At some point we need to use common sense. As a matter of fact, they do not have a scripture that says that women can’t preach, or that women can’t teach men, or that women can’t be deacons, or that the wife needs a leader over her.


    • Let me add something else here. All but two of those things listed were arguments that Scott presented a week or so ago in response to If a woman preaches I’ll walk out the door. They were taken directly word for word from his comments.


  3. mabel says:

    Jesus chose 12 men as disciples, he cd have chosen women, but he didn’t. So women are not to be leaders. Jesus chose 12 Jews. He could have chosen gentiles, but he didn’t. So gentiles are not to be leaders. Same logic. You see how stupidity repeated many times became truth in the minds of the unthinking masses?
    Jesus came to reach the Jewish people, and Jews didn’t, still don’t, listen to women. Jesus worked within the system of the day. In many ways, he overturned the system, but he still worked within it.
    Adam was to lead Eve: where in Genesis is this written? The restrictionists write their own bible.
    Wives who chose to submit: wives who do not have to make independent decisions, do not have to learn to lead, and do not have to be capable. I just learned this week that a dear old friend of mine whose husband died 2 yrs ago is now in a mental institution. Even tho’ she was a doctor, she likes to have her “man” make all the decisions for her. Only then she feels feminine, I guess. WHen he died, she was completely unable to live an independent life. She all of a sudden has to make decisions, and she was not able to. She ended up in a mental institution. So much for women who chose to be led. Man who likes to “take care of my little woman” is not doing her a favor. We ea. have a soul, an independent spirit, and we are not to abdicate thinking for ourselves. A marriage is a partnership, not a corporation with a CEO. Only God is the CEO.


  4. Michelle says:

    The thing about marriage and all the other forms of organization on Earth to which I’ve heard hierarchical complementarians compare it…God never compared marriage to any human-made organization, of which I am aware.


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