“You don’t back that up with scripture!” That is what I hear most often by those who don’t like what I have to say about gender equality. Some times I tell them that they know those scriptures as well as I do, and there is no need for me to quote scripture at them.
I heard this again this past week. No, I did not run to the Bible or to E-Sword to find scripture to back up what I was saying. It wouldn’t have done any good. They’ve read the scriptures, and their mind is frozen in place.
It pained me, but I gave this person the scriptures to back up what I was saying. Of course it wasn’t exactly what he thought he was going to get. I told him that this scripture backs up what I say: Matthew 1 through Revelation 22:21.
We all pick out our favorite scriptures and parrot them. We do this and overlook the overall theme of the Bible. This past week someone sent me a link to a blog that has what is being called Theological Triage. Somebody decided that certain things in the Bible has more importance than others. I don’t disagree with that. But this person hasn’t done the math. He put gender roles in the church in the second tier. I imagine that women’s so-called roles have become preeminent in Baptist and evangelical life, and is given more importance than almost everything listed above it. How we do church hinges on how we view women in the church.
Their pyramid goes like this with the top being the pinnacle:
Top tier
- Full deity and actual humanity of Christ
- The Trinity
- Justification by faith alone
- Authority of the scriptures
Second tier
- Ecclesiology
- Baptism
- Lord’s Supper
- Gender roles in the church
Third tier
- Millennial views
- Gospel freedom issues
- Certain Eschatological questions
- Understanding of some difficult texts
- Understanding of miraculous gifts
Gender roles in the church is in the second tier. Like the prostitute that was handed $20 dollars, I don’t know whether to be offended or pleased. It has 7 above it and 5 below, or else it would be smack-dab in the middle.
It is a subject that really doesn’t belong in this Triageology. Gender roles have absolutely nothing to do with scripture. Jesus said it himself: “The greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, and the second is like unto it, to love your neighbor as yourself. ” Wives, submit to your husbands” was not Jesus’ commandment.
Where would you put gender roles in the church? Are you like me and believe it has no place in a Theological Triage tier?
Do you know why it has no place in this tier? It has no place in this tier because it gives men a place of authority over another person (a woman) who has been justified by Faith alone in the same manner that the husband is justified. In this Theological Triage tier, gender roles means that women are held to certain second-class roles determined by individual churches, and the fact that it is listed in a Theological Triage gives men equality with Christ.
Will you join me in speaking out against men who decide that gender roles is one of the most important subjects in the Bible?
bWe Baptist Women for Equality's Blog 
This list of tiers is nothing. Look at Wayne Grudem’s list of tiers here:
w.org/Journal/Vol-1-No-2/But-What-Should-Women-Do-In-The-Church
Marg wrote on it here: http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/wayne-grudem-women-in-church/
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To unchurched women, gender roles is one of the most important issues. To them, it is an indication of the character of the God we preach. They want nothing to do with a sexist god, A sexist god is petty, small-minded and unjust.
The nature and character of God is a first-tier issue. We are selling our God short in the eyes of the world with this ridiculous doctrine.
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You are right. There is also another factor. People pick up the attitude of the church even if they never attend church. Attitudes about women which stem in the church, spread out into the workplace and in the homes. Husbands think they have control over their wives and neither one goes to church – and the wife suffers. It is up to the church to teach men that they are not little gods, and you and I know that the church is telling society a different story.
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“Matthew 1 through Revelation 22:21.” Love it!
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Glad you loved it! He didn’t.
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There was a time in Baptist life when differing views on the roles of women were allowed. Now the SBC only has one view–the 2000 BF&M and they are right–sarcasm alert-and everyone else is wrong.
I do not know what it will take to change this view as these folks control SB life.
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I don’t know, either, what it will take. A few weeks ago where I work, people spotted roaches. We called the exterminator and he came out and sprayed. We didn’t see any dead roaches, but we began to see hoards of live ones. We called the exterminator again and said you need to come back out. You didn’t get the roaches. They said that the spray brought them all out from where they were hiding in the nooks and crannies. We just keep having to keep spraying and bringing them and their holier-than-thou attitudes out into the light so we can see them and spray again.
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Heard a polygamist family talk on NPR tonight. One of the wives said she is free to do whatever she wants to do, she is not oppressed, but out of respect for the husband, him being the head of the house, he has the final say and they will submit to him. Same old, same old. Head of house. Final say. Submit. We need to spray, or turn the rock over and expose the dirty underbelly with worms even tho’ the upper surface is smooth and shiny.
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Shirley – Anyone
Thought someone might like to respond to this blog post. 😉
The Gospel Coalition
Pure Church – THABITI ANYABWILE
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2011/08/19/fellas-take-the-ladies-salsa-dancing/?comments#comments
Fellas, Take the Ladies Salsa Dancing!
…Besides being fun, you’ll have a wonderful model for male-female relationships in marriage. Here’s what I learned:
1. The entire dance depends on male leadership. There is no dance if the man doesn’t lead.
And much more… on complimentarians…
Seems to me to be a very ugly comparison. 😦
Oy vey!!! 😦
Be blessed… And be a blessing…
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Thanks! I’ll check into it – not to dance, but to see how they dance around equality!
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Shirley, I always ask them to show me in the OT where the “prohibition” against teaching women is to be found. God is always clear on His laws. Well, it is not there. And besides that, Deborah and Huldah would have been in sin if it were there.
So, they want me to believe there is a more strict and legalistic law for women in the New Covenant? No, it is belief in flawed translations (written by men not the HOly Spirit) and spotty hermeneutics that bucks up their interpretation. But if they take the WHOLE pericope, their elevation of themselves does not hold water.
They are neo Pharisees.
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They completely throw away the scriptures that tell us that Jesus came to fulfil the law. They want law so badly, but mainly they want it for “others” and not themselves.
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“The entire dance depends on male leadership. There is no dance if the man doesn’t lead.”
Do you salsa, Amos? very few men can salsa well. An ignorant salsa male dancer is in no position to lead a pro female salsa dancer. My son-in-law is taking dance lessons, and his teacher? a woman. Just because he is male does not mean he can dance. Amos, I have read more than I care about that position, and it is unbiblical. Just look at Grudem’s long laundry list of what women can and cannot do in ministry based on “authority”. Listen to Piper tell wives to submit to verbal abuse and the occasional smacking from the husband, “for Christ”. Their understanding of Christ is different from mine.
Please read Philip Payne’s book ONe in Christ. For your information, Philip Payne is an inerrantist.
Of his personal odyssey, he wrote ” in 1973 at a NT Seminar in Cambridge, England, my assumption of male headship was challenged when a scholar stated that no passage of Scripture properly understood in its context excludes women from any form of Christian ministry. Could this be true? What of 1 Cor 14:34-35, 1 Tim 2:12? To check this, I read 1 Tim in Greek daily for several months…..Key word studies in 1 Tim 2:12 and some shocking discoveries (such as how English translations have introduced a dozen or more masculine pronouns into 1 Tim3’s list of qualifications for overseer and deacon, where the Greek text has none) convinced me that 1 Tim 2-3 is not a solid foundation for restricting women’s ministry.
….It is my prayer that this distillation of my last 36 years of research will encourage and enlighten many.”
I assumed such a book would be difficult to read, but I was wrong. It is both masterfully scholarly and easy to understand.
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Mabel
You ask…
“Do you salsa, Amos?” Nope.
Did you read the post at Gospel Coalition?
Seems I would like “Philip Payne and his “ONE” in Christ book. 😉
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Amos, the article says: Point 1: Husbands are in a position of inescapable leadership, and that requires actually having a series of moves planned for the marriage and family.
Nowhere does the Scripture gives the husband inescapable leadership. Head is often sited, altho’ anybody can tell you head in Greek is never used to mean leader. We insist on a modern English understanding of the word Head.
Point 2: Communicate much, much more than you think you need to. She’ll dance with you if you tell her the next move in a loving, gentle way.
Where is God and the Holy Spirit in this picture? The husband acts as God? ANd if he does not say it in a gentle way, she doesn’t have to listen? So this is not a doctrine after all.
Point 3 Hold your wife close to ease and expedite communication.
This is fine if there is no undertone that his communication represents the final say, etc. etc.
Point 4: Ladies, ask your husband if there are ways you’re trying to help him that seem to hinder his efforts to lead. That may be an area where your well-intended anticipations actually usurp leadership and ruin the blessing of submission.
Wow, I don’t know where to start on such loaded statements with so many false assumptions. The author is completely oblivious to the concept of “gifting”. If she is better in finances, then quit your effort to lead before you lead your family into financial ruin. True story: a preacher told a story of how he decided one day to choose a restaurant to go to celebrate his birthday. Problem is he can never make up his mind. He led his wife on a one hour walk and still can’t decide on which restaurant. His point was his wife allowed him to be stupid so that he can learn how to lead. Sigh. http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/divine-right-leave-that-to-him-who-is-divine/
Point 5: Liberate my wife. Set her free. Tell her the dance. Then wait for the beauty to flourish. She desires and depends upon this.
Finally, a point I can agree with.
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Good points, Mabel. But I think Amos is on the egalitarian side and has posted that link here so that we’ll go over there and say something. Which I did. Thanks, Amos!
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Kristen – Thanks for helping, I guess I wasn’t making myself clear. 😦
And two wonderful comments they were. Great explanation when you said…
“What you are doing is making husbands into little demi-Christs in the home, with the wives in the place of humans and husbands in the place of deity.”
But he, T, still wants husbands to be “leaders” even though that’s NOT in the
Bible. Oy Vey!!
Hopefully your comments will be seen by others and cause them to think a little different.
Maybe even go to Jesus and ask him. 😉 What a concept – obeying God. 😉
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Thank you, Amos.
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Well, “T” had the last word – twice! And then he closed the comments so I could not reply. Which, I think, was heavy handed. He said he was going on vacation. Fine– but giving himself the last word was frustrating to me, to say the least.
Most of his “last word” was simply re-asserting everything he’d said before, as it if were basic fact rather than his opinion. And then he had to cite Wayne Grudem, whose scholarship on the issue of the word “kephale” is very much in question.
Oh well. Maybe someone else will read what I wrote and think about it, anyway.
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Kristen
Really enjoyed your comments. I was amazed he, T, let it go on for so long.
In the past I’ve been ignored, had comments removed, and been banned from
The Gospel Coalition Blogs. Seems he was trying to be very warm and friendly about
the comments that were disagreeing with him. 😉
After that “Salsa” post – a vacation never looked so good. 😉
And – He only had the last word – for now…
Jesus is “the first” word and “the last” word.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
*their shepherds* have caused them to go astray…
I’m blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul… Jesus…
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Hi all
Seems The Gospel Coalition is at it again today. How do you like this title. 🙂
“Can Jackie O Teach Us to Be Good Complementarians?”
What???
Here’s the link in case anyone cares to comment.
You never know who’s lurking and questioning this stuff. 😦
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2011/09/20/can-jackie-o-teach-us-to-be-good-complementarians/?comments#comments
Oh Yea – They have banned me from this site – I’ve gone thru three cyber names.
I’m running out of email addresses. 😉
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Great site! I posted a comment. Thanks a bunch.
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Did you notice this comment over there by a guy?
“I’m so grateful to have such an excellent resource my sisters in Christ can look to for guidance.”
This is wrong on so many levels.
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Excellent resource, my foot!
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Kristen
Thanks – I now know what “ezer” means. 😉
And it is used a lot referring to God. Cool.
Ps 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their “help” and their shield.
Ps 115:10 O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their “help” and their shield.
Ps 115:11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their “help” and their shield.
Ps 121:1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my “help”.
Ps 121:2 My “help” cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Ps 124:8 Our “help” is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Ps 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his “help”,
whose hope is in the LORD his God:
Thanks for being a “help” to me. 😉
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You’re welcome. 🙂
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Well, that conversation ended the way they usually do. The patriarchalists/complementarians called us heretics and scripture-twisters, and then engaged in a self-congratulatory praise-fest for themselves at the way they had excluded us from their group of the truly-blest.
Bah. I think next time you ask me to comment at Gospel Coalition, Amos– I will refrain. Enough’s enough.
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You did a fantastic job. I wonder who you really are and what kind of work you do. I am amazed at the depth of your knowledge. And your willingness to share it. You know there were lots reading those comments who weren’t commenting. So you were getting your message across to them. I don’t know how many you influenced and gave cause to ponder. Kamilla and Mary have swallowed that submission thing. Who knows? You may have put a chink in their belief.
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Kristen
I’m in agreement with Shirley – You never know who else is watching.
And who God is making uncomfortable with the system the way it is.
I’ve had to learn to NOT be upset with those who disagree with me – for now.
Very few agree right away with my stance on…
Pastors – In the Bible…
… NO one, in the Bible, has the “Title” Pastor or Reverend.
… NO one is called Pastor – NO one is hired, or fired, as a Pastor.
… There are NO congregations “Led” by a Pastor.
… BUT… Both men and women desire that “Title” and “Position” today 😦
… AND… They ALL say the Bible is the Word of God – Hmmm?
… BUT … In the Bible…
There are NO Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews. 😉
Today both desire to be – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews. 😉
Leaders – Jesus told His Disciples in Mat 23:10, NOT to be called “Leader”
… For you have “ONE” leader – Christ.
And NONE of His Disciples called themselves “Leader”
NONE called themselves “Servant-Leader.”
They ALL called themselves “Servants of Christ.” BUT… Today…
Both men and women want to *be known* as “Leader” in opposition to Jesus. 😦
Seems both are in bondage to the “Traditions of Men”
that nullify the word of God. Mk 7:13
So keep chipping away at what you see as “Folks in bondage” to a lie.
When we’re deceived we don’t know it.
And – Trust Jesus – to reveal the truth to them.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice – {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Thanks to both of you for your kind words. Amos, I do agree with you about the leadership thing, actually– and if we could get rid of this glorification of church leadership, it would go a long way towards solving the problem of women in ministry– because who could object to women being fellow-servants? But the church must also learn to view women as Jesus viewed them, as full equals, capable of pulling their weight in the bringing of the Kingdom. As long as the body of Christ has half its mouth taped shut and one side of its body tied up, we will hobble and mumble, and be less than half as effectual as Jesus intended.
Shirley, I’m a 47-year-old paralegal, wife of 23 years, and mother of two, living in Oregon in a mid-size town. I have a BA in English from the University of Oregon Honors College. And I read a lot. 😉
I’m a member of the Take Heart Project, which you have a link to on this blog. Most of the FAQ answers on that website were written by me. 🙂 Hope that tells you a little about who I am.
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Thank you! Yes, I do have that link on my website. Sometimes I lose sight of who everybody is. I remember when I put that link on the site.
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Kristen
Much agreement when you say…
“if we could get rid of this glorification of church leadership, it would go a long way towards solving the problem of women in ministry– because who could object to women being fellow-servants?”
Where I live in “The body of Christ” – NOT “the Corrupt Religious System” we see today – this gender issue – “Comp. or Egal”- does NOT exist. Roles do not exist. “Disciples of Christ” do NOT exercise, or assume authority over another “Disciple of Christ.”(Mark 10:42) In Christ we are “ONE.” “The Church” is “the body” of Christ. NOT a building, an organization, an institution or a corporation. Keeping to “The Traditions of men” is not the point.
Where I live in “The body of Christ” it’s about – Who knows Jesus? Who is Hearing “His Voice?” Who has a living Christ within? Who has the Spirit of God dwelling in them? Who has been taught by God? Who has a revelation from God? Who is exhibiting “the Fruit of the Spirit?” Who is moving in the “Gifts of the Spirit?” Male or Female.
This is what’s important. ALL can “hear from God.” ALL can, and are expected to, participate.
1Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, **every one of you**
hath a psalm, **hath a doctrine,** hath a tongue, **hath a revelation,** hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
It’s NOT about “Who” does the teaching,
But, “Who” has a revelation from God, male or female.
It’s about recognizing the Spirit that dwells within the person.
The Spirit of God? Or, the Spirit of the world? Or, ….
1Cor 2:12
Now we have received, not **the spirit of the world,** but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
When it’s the same “Spirit of God” dwelling in male and female…
Does gender matter?
In, Jesus, He is the head of the body, (the ekklesia, the called out ones)
“the Church.”
We are all ”ONE” body. We are all “ONE” in Christ.
Keep the faith – more and more are seeing the truth… 😉
Try this site – your comments and others were appreciated
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/09/21/the-gospel-coalition-channels-jackie-o-as-a-model-of-complementarian-womanhood/
Be blessed and be a blessing…
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I like the Warburg Watch. 🙂
I notice the discussion continues over on Gospel Coalition. I was interested to learn that we’re evil deceivers who should be denied any access to their holy blog lest we lead innocent girls astray.
It made me laugh. They ain’t seen nothing yet!
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They seek to shut us up! I wonder if they sing “They’ll know we are Christians by our love” on Sundays? And you are right about the aint seen nothing yet. Please pray for this conference we are working on in Houston 2012. We hope to show them something.
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