Advent – Should Women be Looking for the Christ Child, or for a Husband?

Sunday was the beginning of Advent.  Churches light the Advent candle and the church begins its countdown until the Christ child is born on Christmas Day.

Most Baptists do not light Advent candles, but they do spend the month of December with Cantatas, children’s Christmas plays, and so forth.

“A Baby Changes Everything” was popular last year and Don and I heard it sung at two different churches.

The countdown begins for the birth of Jesus who will save us. 

But do women really need Jesus?

Listen to what Daniel commented on my blog a few weeks ago: “The man answers to God for the actions of his wife and children.”

Whoa! Did you catch that? How can a man answer to God for the actions of his wife and children?  For that to happen we must find these scriptures in the Bible:

  • That a husband is divine as he stands as a mediator between his wife and kids and God. The husband would have to be divine because it is a divine Jesus who stands as the mediator for the husband. (Job 9:32) Surely women wouldn’t need a human standing before God for her, would she? (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
  • That the wife cannot speak for herself because she is an incomplete human being, incapable of coming before God for herself, and has no hope outside her husband. (Romans 3:22)
  • That the children are not complete human beings capable of having a relationship with God. (Acts 2:17) 

The scriptures given say completely the opposite of what the commenter Daniel said. Oh, but he is just one person.  Nobody really believes like that, do they?

Yes, they do. Dr. Dorothy Patterson, the wife of the president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, does.  She said “When my husband tells me to do something, and even if I know that he is wrong, then I just have to do it, and he stands accountable before God.”  (Christianity Today 1998) (See my speech on www.freecwc.com).

Cindy Kunsman can tell you that Baptist seminarians believe it.  At a conference in 2008 at a Southern Baptist Seminary, Cindy says “Several young men asked how it was that I believed that they would not stand before God…to give an account and to intercede for their wives….These (young men) were  Baptist Seminary Students.” (ethicsdaily.com April 2008).

Advent – should women be looking for the Christ child, or for a husband?

Advertisements

About bwebaptistwomenforequality

Shirley Taylor writes with humor and common sense, challenging the church body to reclaim equality for Christian women.
This entry was posted in Apostle Paul clarified, Do Baptists Really Believe That?, Equality for women in Southern Baptist churches, Male Headship fallacy, Marriage and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

32 Responses to Advent – Should Women be Looking for the Christ Child, or for a Husband?

  1. Paula says:

    I have seen this everywhere. And the men who believe it deny to the end that pride in the flesh has anything to do with it. They refuse to see, even when shown, how it clashes with “not so among you” and Jesus being the only mediator. They refuse to admit that it makes women subhuman by nature, while children at least can grow up– well, the males anyway. There is no difference between this teaching and those of Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Islam.

    Like

    • I just wonder how it would feel to think that God chose you simply because you were male. I know how it feels to think that God didn’t choose me simply because I am female. I also know that both ways of thinking are wrong.

      Like

      • Paula says:

        To let things go to our heads is human… to get them out is divine.

        Women are no less prone to pride than men, but rarely have the opportunity. And just as some poor people who win the lottery go to the other extreme and become indulgent materialists, I’m sure some women would gladly dish out what they’ve had to take if given the chance.

        But the indwelling Spirit and the teachings of Jesus should make us all renounce both control and vengeance. I’ve never bought the “product of their time” argument, so neither would I buy the “freed prisoners would never imprison others” argument. But being Christians is supposed to keep us from either extreme.

        Egal/mutualism is the very middle ground, the balance point, between those two extremes. We stress mutuality but are always mistaken for lusting for power by those who can’t imagine anything else. That’s why we’re continually lumped with “feminists” and called “Jezebel”.

        But regardless of what some women may do if the tables were turned, the fact is that history/culture have always been overwhelmingly male supremacist. And that’s why we only battle that, which in turn is why we are seen as the opposite extreme.

        I often wonder what could possibly be done to break through the hard shell surrounding most of Christendom on this issue, but I think the hold is so strong that we’re wasting our time on a brick wall. I think our efforts would be better used in “going outside the camp” and starting to live the Christian life as scripture teaches, and standing on the street corners (figuratively) so that those “with ears to hear” can break free.

        Like

      • Actually, I have thought of going on the street corners, literally.

        Like

  2. ”We stress mutuality but are always mistaken for lusting for power by those who can’t imagine anything else. ”

    Yes, that always made me giggle. Talk about projection. When you have one person ‘in charge’ that isn’t lusting for power, but when mutuality is involved it is.

    Strange how they must not use the same dictionary as most people do. Their definitions tend to mean the complete opposite. Could that be why people are ‘confused’?

    It baffles the mind that most haven’t grasped their definitions don’t follow an ordinary dictionary.

    Like

    • chaidrinkingfool says:

      Thanks! I love this. I appreciate this. In limited interaction I’ve had with folks about this kind of thing, I’ve seen eyes glaze over when I’ve mentioned the dictionary of the English language. It seems its value is not recognized in this sort of context. I hate the damage that’s being done to the English language because of this sort of thing.

      As I keep harping on, “complementary” is a fine word, with no hint of hierarchy in its dictionary meaning…

      Like

  3. Anna Donaldson says:

    I would love to hear how Ephesians 5 fits into your views. Does it not say that men are the head of their wives?

    Like

    • Paula says:

      Sure it does. And that wives are the bodies of their husbands. Unity of substance, interdependence, and mutual care; no hierarchy there at all.

      And of course, there are many articles written about Eph. 5 and all the other pertinent texts, so I hope that instead of having to explain it over and over we can just direct people to those articles.

      But no disputed text can overturn the undisputed ones, such as “not so among you”. I would love to hear how anyone fits that into male supremacist views.

      Like

    • First, we have to look at 1 Corinthians 11:3. Because 1 Corinthians was written by Paul about 54 AD. Ephesians was written about 80-100 AD by someone – Paul or someone else.

      Paul says in 1 Corithians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” In order for the head of the woman to be man – the man must be divine. Now if you believe that men are divine, then you are believing in a Quadruple Godhead instead of the Trinity. (See one of my earlier posts – just read them all until you find it.)

      This is what Paul is saying:

      Now that you are Christians I want you to understand the relationship Christ has with you. Christ becomes your head. It is like this. Think of your marriage. The husband is the buyer, the owner, and the possessor of the woman. He is to take care of her, and to love her. Jesus becomes like that husband to all Christians because Christ is God and it is from God he came.

      Reread 1 Corinthians 11:3 this way “Now I want you to realize the head of every man is Christ (remember the illustration that I gave you about how the man is the head of the woman in the marriage) and the head of Christ is God.”

      Then go and read Ephesians 5:22-23. He is saying the same thing. All he is doing is repeating what Paul said earlier to the Corinthians.

      Let me ask you this question. Why would Paul say anything else? To do so completely distorts Christ. It distorts the relationship men and women have with Christ. You can’t make a man divine, and you must make him divine to have this kind of authority over a woman. The message of the Bible is of Christ, not one of wives submitting to men.

      Thank you for reading. I recommend that you visit my website http://www.bwebaptist.com. Please question what you have been told. Above all, ask WHY? Why is the gospel complete with women submitting?

      Like

      • Anna Donaldson says:

        These are all really thought provoking responses, thank you.

        While I don’t believe any of us completely get what Paul, and the author of Eph., found so important to state repeatedly. They say women are to be in submission to men though I agree to what Paula says, it does not mean men are by any means divine authorities. Nor does it mean husbands will intercede for their wives.

        It still seems foolish to just consider this topic so easily understood and anyone else a fool for disagreeing.

        Like

      • Thank you for your comments. We learn from each other. You agree with Paula, and you do not believe that husbands will intercede for their wives. But seminary students are being taught that. You and your children will be affected by that at some point in your life in church as these students graduate and go out into churches. Again, I thank you so much for your comments.

        Like

    • chaidrinkingfool says:

      In addition to the great responses already given, including resources, I’ll note that we need to be careful when reading scripture to not read current US figurative understandings of words into the Bible translation we’re reading.

      In this case, we need to be careful to not immediately understand “head” as meaning “boss”, “supervisor”, or “leader”, and be open to other interpretations.

      Like

  4. EricW says:

    “What part of ‘equal’ do you not understand?”

    Like

    • chaidrinkingfool says:

      Oh, we’re ALL equal before God. But that doesn’t mean we have to put equality in practice on Earth, does it? Doesn’t God take care of that when he comes back?

      😉
      (I hope you have seen me around online enough to know that my tongue was place firmly in my cheek while typing that, though I am expressing an actual frustration…)

      Like

  5. territippins says:

    Let me share something that I heard last night. I was surfing through channels and stopped when I heard Matthew Hagee (aka. John Hagee Jr. 😉 talking about marriage. At that point in the discussion he was talking about the husbands *role*. He used Ephesians 5 of course, and made the statement that the husband was the Savior, Sanctifier and Satisfier. He went on to assure wives or husbands ( I don’t really know;) that husband as Savior did not mean that he could redeem his wife. But instead, he linked the savior role of husband to the verse 1 Peter 5:7. “Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.” He went on to say that the wife should cast all her burdens on her husband, who in return should cast them on Jesus. He got his husband/Savior/mediator message across, and he said it in such a flowery way to.

    Like

    • How sick! How arrogant! How unscriptural! And to think that people hang onto his every word.

      Like

    • Kristen says:

      As far as I’m concerned, this is blasphemy. Hagee is saying some humans are gods to other humans.

      Like

    • You can find his exact quote on Hagee Family Treasures CD. This is the promo for it: Finally, Pastor Matthew Hagee teaches “God’s plan for the Man.” It all begins when the husband submits to Christ and gives sacrificial love to his wife. God has called every man to be his wife’s savior, sanctifier and satisfier. Fulfilling these roles will guarantee your wife’s every need, want and desire. What stupid heresy these people are teaching. They have left the scriptures and saving grace of Christ, and now they focus on man’s self-fulfillment. I think Paul said something about being lover’s of self, didn’t he?

      Like

  6. territippins says:

    I think if any one was to disagree with the Hagee’s interpretation, He would surely humbly consider your argument…….not! There is not one humble bone in his body, from what I have heard and seen. Wasn’t it Dobson who took out a $10,000.00 magazine/newspaper spread to refute someone that disagreed with him? When you make as much money as they do your philosophy and ideas become golden and non-negotiable.

    Like

  7. Lydia says:

    “I would love to hear how Ephesians 5 fits into your views. Does it not say that men are the head of their wives?”

    Paula gets it right about the “head/body” metaphor. We have to read Kephale (head) like the 1st century Greek’s would. It did not mean “authority” over to them.There are plenty of authority words the Holy Spirit could have inspired there if He was communicating “authority over’ in that passage. In fact, He used one in 1 Corin 7 concerning marriage. The only problem is that it is mutual.

    Eph 5 is about unity and love. Not authority. Paul uses the church body as a metaphor. And most take it Waaaaay too far making the husband a sort of “Savior” for his wife. That is blasphemous and mocks our Savior who hung on a cross for married women, too

    And don’t forget Eph 5:21. Most pastors leave that one out and start at verse 22. When asked many will tell you it does not apply to everyone.

    But the bottomline is where do they get ‘authority over’ in a “One Flesh Union”?

    Like

  8. Lydia says:

    Eric, I am also shocked to find authoritarian husband as savior of wife teaching out of the millionare son’s church:

    Like

  9. Pingback: Advent – Should Women be Looking for the Christ Child, or for a Husband? | bWe Baptist Women for Equality's Blog

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s